Not having been raised Catholic, I can relate to the question that is often asked, “Why do Catholics pray to Mary?” A good way to respond to someone asking that question is to first explain the Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints.
People questioning the idea of praying to a saint perceive that those who are dead in Christ are disconnected from those on earth, so to pray to someone who is dead seems like a useless proposition. Non-Catholics are quick to pray for one another, but to pray for the dead or ask the intercession of those who are dead is not only foreign, it’s a bit suspect.
So in order to explain why we pray to Mary and the saints, we need to explain that there is a connection between the Body of Christ that is already in heaven and those who are still on earth. Though a person is no longer living on earth, that does not mean they are not living. We have a relationship with those who are living in heaven, and that during the Mass heaven and earth connect.
Once that difference is explained, you can make the connection that praying to Mary or the saints is like asking a friend here on earth to pray for you. Catholics also believe that a saint in heaven has a better connection to Christ, since they are right there with him.
Part of the problem of explaining the communion of saints to non-Catholics is that the Bible that they use does not have the books that mention praying for the dead and asking for the intercession of angels, so trying to quote those Scriptures will not be accepted.
However, there are some verses in Revelation that talk about the prayers of the saints. For example, Revelation 5:8:
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.And Revelation 8:3-4:
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.Of course for those in heaven, there is no need for prayers, so the prayers of the saints are for those on earth. If saints are praying for us, why not implore them with something specific? That is how we on earth ask each other. If the Body of Christ is not separated, then it would be wrong to say we can’t ask members of the Body of Christ in heaven to pray for us, because that would be a denial of the unity of Christ.
It can also be helpful to point out the role of Bathsheba in the Old Testament as the Queen Mother to Solomon, who interceded for people on their behalf. So too the Queen Mother of heaven can intercede for us.
One through Love
Romans 8:35-39 talks about all of us being together in the love of God. If nothing can separate us from God’s love, how can we be separate from one another who are held together in God’s love?
In Mark 12:24-27, Jesus talks about the resurrection and proclaims that God is a God of the living, not of the dead and that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob still live. This Scripture verse reinforces that those who die in faith are not dead. If they are not dead, then they are part of the kingdom of heaven, which is both in heaven and on earth. And so it follows that if we are connected, we can ask for the prayers of those in heaven who are part of God’s kingdom.
So once you can show people that it is biblical to pray to the saints, then you can easily point out that since Mary is the mother of Jesus, surely she can intercede for us as well.
It is a great blessing to have a host of heaven to pray for us as we labor and struggle here on earth.
You May Also Like:
Do Catholics Worship Saints? [Fr. Mike Schmitz Video]
Is Jesus the Only Mediator?
How Being Thirsty May Deepen Your Prayer Life
Psalms: Prayers from the Heart of a King
Mary: A Biblical Walk with the Blessed Mother [Study Program]
Emily Cavins received her bachelor of arts degree in classical and Near Eastern archaeology from the University of Minnesota. She is a tour leader of annual pilgrimages to Israel and other Bible-related destinations. Emily is also the developer of the Bible study resources, and co-author of The Great Adventure Storybook. She co-authored the Walking Toward Eternity Bible Study Series, Part One (Daring to Walk the Walk) and Two (Engaging the Struggles of Your Heart) with her husband, Jeff. Some of her other work includes: Great Adventure Kids, Lily of the Mohawks: The Story of St. Kateri, and Catholic Family Night, a series of lessons covering all three liturgical reading cycles with one lesson per week throughout the entire year.
Emily lives in Minnesota with Jeff, her husband of over thirty years.
Featured image and square image sourced from Wikimedia Commons
This blog post first appeared on The Great Adventure Blog (biblestudyforcatholics.com) on June 17, 2015. Find out more about Great Adventure Bible studies here or by clicking the banner below:
Explain John 14:6
“Why should you pray to Mary and the saints?” Actually, YOU SHOULDN’T!! It is a blasphemy and shows both ignorance of God and the Bible. I read the whole polemic written by Jose Samilin and found it unscriptural and completely unsatisfactory. The veneration and worship of Mary and the saints in heaven is a heresy that was NEVER taught by the Apostles nor the early Church. Let me quote here from gotanswers.org verbatim: “The Bible nowhere instructs followers of Jesus Christ to offer worship, veneration, adoration, or anything similar to anyone but God. Nowhere does the New Testament describe any followers of Jesus Christ worshipping, venerating, or adoring anyone other than God. They did not receive worship, either. Peter refused to receive adoration from Cornelius (Acts 10:25–26), and Paul and Barnabas were equally adamant that the people of Lystra not venerate them (Acts 14:15). Twice in the Book of Revelation (19:10; 20:7), the apostle John begins to worship an angel, and the angel instructs him, “Worship God!” Mary and the saints who have gone to heaven before us would say the same thing: “Worship God!” Jose Samalin is conflating the term “respect”, “honor”, “worship” as meaning just about the same thing. He would deny it of course, but such a distinction is found only in Roman Catholic because it is nowhere to be supported by the Bible. Indeed, as shown above, it runs contrary to the Bible!
The Catholic Church has different degrees of worship: dulia, hyper dulia, and latria. Dulia is the honor given to the saints. Hyper dulia is the honor given to Mary alone, as the greatest of the saints. Latria is the honor given to God alone. In contrast, the Bible always ascribes honor, in the context of worship, to God alone (1 Chronicles 29:11; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 4:11; 5:13). Even if there were biblical support for different levels of worship, there still would be no biblical support for offering lower/lesser levels of worship to anyone other than God.
Only God is worthy of worship, adoration, praise (Nehemiah 9:6; Revelation 4:11; 15:4), and veneration, no matter how it is defined. Mary’s worth comes from the fact that God choose her for a glorious role and saved her from her sins through the death of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:47). The saints’ worth comes from the fact that God saved them, transformed them, and then used them in mighty and amazing ways.”
Let the words of JESUS HIMSELF convince you! His words and meaning NEVER CHANGE!
Luke 11:27 AND 28. “As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed! But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”
This passage speaks for itself. No special respect for Mary is EVER warranted.
Mary needed saving from her sins!
Luke 1:46-47 “And Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,“
If she were immaculate and sinless, what would God ever need to save her? This erroneous doctrine wasn’t dogmatically defined until 1854.
I repeat. The vast majority of Roman Catholics around the world are woefully ignorant of what the Bible says, otherwise they would be reading it for themselves and leaving Romanism. I clearly even remember as a child praying to a statue in a Roman Catholic congregation. This is in clear violation of the 2nd commandment.
Roman Catholicism needs a new Reformation! Even the current pope tolerates homosexuality. How pathetic!
Biblically, I don’t believe it is possible to contact any dead people ( those who are with Jesus in heaven), including Mary or any saint. When asked, Jesus taught us, very simply, how to pray. I don’t think we should stray to far from his instruction.
But isn’t praying to someone besides god idolizing the said person. I could pray to my grandmother. I could pray to my great grandfather. I could pray to the pope! The only thing that I am hearing from this is that god only hears prayers sometimes.
Only Jesus can hear your prayers.
2 Timothy 2: 5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
i have no doubt at all that the reason these books you mention that non-catholics do not have in their bibles is because they are not a part of the legitimate word of God. what this has done has put the words of men together with the word of God. this is what the catholic church does. it does not put the word of God first. it puts ‘the church’ even above the word of God. but if you think logically and reasonably.. there is no way that those books that have been accepted into the canon can abide the acceptance of these doctrines you speak of. it doesn’t matter what else these other books say.. if they say what you say they say.. that is a contradiction of the other books. you can’t accept these books and those books. if you accept those, you have to reject these, because they teach something different. this then is adding to the word of God, and upon which is pronounced a curse. this just shows that the Lord Jesus Christ has not chosen everyone. catholics are not saved and do not go to heaven.
Emily, or anyone who can answer: Emily writes: “Catholics understand that we have a relationship with those who are living in heaven, and that during the Mass heaven and earth connect.”
My question is about whether we believe the dead are “living in heaven” NOW, or if the Church believes that the believers go to Heaven when Christ returns.
Hi–Thanks for your question. Here is a brief summary from the Catechism of the Church about the communion of saints.
960 The Church is a “communion of saints”: this expression refers first to the “holy things” (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which “the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about” (LG 3).
961 The term “communion of saints” refers also to the communion of “holy persons” (sancti) in Christ who “died for all,” so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.
962 “We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers” (Paul VI, CPG § 30)
My idea that I will present next is not explicitly spelled out in the CCC, but this is my take on your question–If we on earth are bound by time, once we die we step outside of time into the eternal dimension and so what is happening in eternity is not bound by the time that we experience here on earth. So people in eternity are “nowing” rather than “before and aftering”
The Catechism has a lot to say about the Communion of Saints, but I don’t recall something specifically addressing the timing of it. In my thinking, since eternity is outside of time, our linear thinking can’t be applied to life outside of time. There is a scripture that says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord — (2Cor. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.) that has some indication that once we are no longer alive as mortals, we are then in the presence of Jesus.
There is also a personal judgement according to each man’s work and the Final Judgement when Satan will be bound forever. When these things occur in eternity can’t be measured, but to understand them in time, we make it linear. First this happens…then this happens…..but in eternity it all is happening in the “now”.
We know that our souls do not die when you earthly body parish.
Otherwise they could not go to heaven, nor hell after Judgment day.
I guess most seem to be asking the same question.
Even if the saints in heaven can see and hear people on earth still alive in their fleshly bodies.
Can someone please post scripture stating or showing an example where a saint in heaven actually interceded on a prayer of a person still alive on earth, to God the heavenly father.
I think that is where most are struggling. I don’t believe they are trying to be rude. I think they are just seeking they way the know how.
I think they are truly trying to understand why they should do other than the scripture. because they will not be punished for following John 14:6.
And don’t see where God would punish them for follow this scripture and praying to the Christ over the saints or Mary in heaven.
So I guess they are just asking for valid reason to diveat from John 14:6. and do so.
John 14:6.
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ”
I think someone could help a lot of struggling people if they could post such scriptures.
Something showing where a saint in heaven not only heard the prayer, but actually interceded it to God on that persons behalf.
Not Just hear the prayer then refused to intercede it to God. and just referred them back to the God.
That makes me think of when you purchase something without reading all the agreement of purchase.
And you try to get a employer in the store to refund your money.
And they refuse to give you a refund and refer you to the agreement of purchase.
And when you keep asking, they refer you to the Boss “aka, God ” to make the final judgment….. lol
Nothing but love to all !!!
Jesus said that no man comes to the father, but through me.
If I’m asking for help I’m going to reach out directly to Christ who is my savior. I will not reach out to anybody else. Why would anyone think praying to a Saint would be pleasing to God when he sent Jesus to die for us?
I will never understand this logic.
Russ Wallace Greetings in Christ
“This Logic”
You are trapped in the false logic of “Either/Or”
What is the nature of “Supernatural Truthes” as they appear to us? Often paradoxical.
The answer to most of these Catholic/Protestant differerences is the difference between
“Either/Or” ….&……”Both/And”
Almost all the old Heresies were caused by false “EITHER/OR”
Dichotomies
eg
EITHER God is three; OR God is one
EITHER Christ is fully human; OR fully divine
So the early centuries of Catholic Christianity faced a veritable barrage of such heresies.
It used Councils & Creeds to authoritatively preserve the
paradoxical “both/ands” of supernatural truthes (always Mysteries) such as “The Trinity” or the “Hypostatic union”.
At the Reformation the earthbound, relentless,
logic-of-the-flesh, reasserted itself with a whole new list of
“either / or” dichotomies.
EITHER Faith OR Works
EITHER Faith OR Reason
EITHER Bible OR Tradition
EITHER Gospel OR Law
EITHER God’s Soverignity OR Free Will
EITHER Memorial Meal OR Eucharistic Sacrifice
EITHER “Baptism of water” OR “Baptism of The Spirit”
EITHER Worship in the Spirit OR Worship with your body
EITHER Jesus is in The Eucharist OR in Heaven
EITHER Priesthood of all believers OR Ministerial Priesthood
EITHER An invisible Church (of the “saved”) OR A visible “Institution”
EITHER A relationship with Jesus OR a relationship with Mary & The Saints
Protestants pose the false dichotomy,
select the first,
make it a “Sola” (an “Only”)
and then attack Catholics/Orthodox as though they held only the opposite choice!
This is a mistake Catholics usually think & believe “Both / And”
Again Catholicism preserved the “both/and ‘s” of supernatural truthes. God, & supernatural truthes, cannot always be contained by the simple dichotomies of scholars.
———————
Of course Catholics go directly to Jesus. What do you think “The Sacred Heart” or “Eucharistic Adoration” is all about?
But we are A FAMILY.
You are also confusing and conflating Christ’s unique role as “The God-Man”….. with our duty to imitate Him in all things…..which is ALSO true. (Both/And)
So, only four verses before Paul tells us there is only ONE (Unique) Mediator he says this…… (1 Timothy 2:1-4) “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
“INTERCESSION” IS MEDIATION. Clearly, then, intercessory
prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s
unique role as mediator. Why would this surprise us? Christ is unique in many ways; but He asks us to IMITATE HIM IN ALL THINGS.
So, in your denomination, people don’t don’t ask others to pray for them? If they do, they are acting in the same way we ask our mother Mary to act.
It is asking the intercession or mediation of those ALIVE in God. Try looking up Mary as “Gibirah”…..Davidic King’s
MOTHER was his QUEEN & Jesus as Messiah is the eternal
Son-of-David-King ……then look at Cana again John 2:3-4. and
compare the queen-mother’s intercession in 1 Kings 2:19-20.
If you die tonight…..& you are with God…..wil you stop praying for those in need now that you are closer to God? Can they ask you?
Satan seeks to divide us. All the different variations of Christianity such as Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Lutheran etc all seem to have different theologies which confuses people. Imagine what a non believer thinks of us when none of us Christians can agree on anything. The Bible is very clear though. When Jesus prayed a prayer as an example, He said in Luke 11 ” Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.” He did not pray to Mary or any saint. I love my Catholic Brothers and Sisters but this is something that has their eyes blinded and taking the focus off of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One ! Mary nor the saints, nor any Angels are Gods and are not to be prayed to. Side note: I am not judging, just pointing out Bible Truths. I am a sinner as guilty as any and not pretending to be better or holier than thou. “For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God”. Just want to help because we are all tricked on a daily basis by the great deceiver Satan. Stay strong and pray for each other, it is not just the non believers who need prayer but the Christians as well as Satan would enjoy nothing better than for one of us to fall and walk away from Christ due to doubts.
GodGutsGlory
If you are open to learning what Catholics do instead of what protestants SAY Catholics do….please read my other recent replies here to avoid repeat posts.
MEDIATION
Four verses before Paul tells us there is only ONE (Unique) Mediator he says this……….
” 1 Timothy 2:1-4,
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers,
intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the
knowledge of the truth”
Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,”……not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
Why would this surprise us?
Christ is unique in many ways but He asks us to IMITATE HIM IN ALL THINGS.
You are locked in “Either/or-thinking” (See my reply to Russ).
You also seem to accept the baseless assertion of “Bible-alone” ….which is a 16th Century invention & now a “tradition of (Protestant) man”.
There are so many things wrong with this (Sola Scriptura) but….
(1)It’s nowhere in The Bible, so it fails its own test of validity. It is self-refuting.
(2)”Show me in the bible” is not in the Bible.
(3)The early Christians did not have The Bible. When Paul writes to the Corinthians, Galations etc it is because there were already Churches there.
(4)The Bible (1Tim 3:15) tell you “THE CHURCH (not scripture) IS THE PILLAR & FOUNDATION OF TRUTH”
(5)The Bible…is a library…compiled by Athanasius & authorised by Catholic councils & Popes firstly in 367 AD through to 419 AD.
The Bible itself does not tell you even which books should be in it. So this requires a greater or equivalent authority to discern & authorise.
Luther took out 6 OT books & wanted to remove James, Jude, Hebrews, John’s letters & Revelations.
How many books are in your bible?
Who decided this?
On what authority?
(6)The usual text cited 2Tim 3:16-17 proves the opposite of Sola Scriptura.
Paul highlights (Chapter 3) to Timothy that the truth he will preach depends on the men from whom he learnt, then he says “The Tanakh (OT) is useful…..” (“All scripture” then meant the OT)
The abuse of this text to mean “ONLY (a much later collection of scriptures) is necessary”…. is mind-boggling!
—————————————-
If you die tonight….& if you are with God….will you then STOP praying for those you now pray for?
You would be closer to God, & a “just man” whose “prayer availeth much”. Why would you stop your intercessions?
And if you continue to pray for loved ones…. can’t they ask you to?
Amen. They are not born again of His Holy Spirit and simply deceived. We are called Saints of God,even while on earth ,ones that are clothed by the power of the Holy Spirit Bible is very clear on any way of tying to communicate with dead. Not to mention many Catholic so called “saints” ,like for example mother Teresa , are in Hell. I saw here there. They do not see and are blinded how prayers to anyone but God Himself are idolatry. I used to do that as well,pray to different Saints and Mother Mary, until He had set me free.
Even if you do not go on your knees,to physically humble, you are still humbling yourself in your mind to pray to someone other than God. You bow down your spirit to someone else ,who in fact cannot hear you. Only God is Omnipresent and by your own deceived belief that someone else but Jesus can help you in your prayer to God Almighty is plain idolatry. Idol that people create in their mind, instead of seek Him with all their heart,mind and soul.
We, as Catholics believe, that the saints know much better than we do what is best for us, and just as you would go to your mom before asking your dad something (Mom, how would be the best way to approach this with dad) or with your boss that you are trying to convince of something, you may ask someone who knows the boss better, that is what we do when we ask the saints for their help. I sometimes think part of the ‘problem’ is the language – words we use. We as Catholics use the same word ‘pray’ to describe when we talk to God, and when we ask for help from the saints. So we may be a little incomplete/ not as precise with our language, so Satan can use that to divide us too often. 🙁
it is even written in 10 Commandments that “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”. so why do you worship of the idols or images ..???
Emily Cavins, this article is well written and makes some assumptions in the beginning that I think if considered incorrect, may change the aspect of this piece by shifting the perspective of the reader.
Your explanation, if one assumes the postulated assumptions are correct, would settle the matter.
The main problem I have is, where is it written that the dead are in heaven before the living? When I read Genesis and the verse opens up “In the beginning…” What does this say? To me it says that God decided to create the universe and all that is in it. But it also says in those few words what the first thing in our existence, He created. Time.
This tells me a few things, one is that God is timeless because he created it, therefore He must exist outside of it, sure he can enter it and influence it, but He existed outside of it. Next, if we imagine time as a train track stretching across a table, and that represents time, with its boundaries being the edge of the table. From God’s perspective, does it matter where along the rail you fell off? Would someone who died 1,000 years ago, or more towards the left side of the table, reach God before someone who is still living and has yet to die? I don’t thinks so.
What would this assumption do to your theory about praying TO Mary and the Saints? How else could Jesus die on the cross for ALL mankind? Since there were generations of “Man” before Him? It becomes a bit simpler to understand when you realize God invented time.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that we should pray to Mary or any other saints. You will not find it in the Bible because it is a man made thought. It breaks my heart how deceived people are when they can pray to Jesus himself. That’s one reason why Jesus died on the cross was to restore our fellowship with our Creator. It is idolatry because you are putting Mary in a role that only Jesus can do, be our mediator.
I don’t disagree with the communion of saints in that we are eternal and all part of God’s family. I cannot however understand this as a reasonable explanation for praying to saints unless I am also to believe that saints are omnipresent and/or omniscient. Is this what Catholics believe?
I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion. First, nowhere in the bible does it say that when you die, you obtain God like powers and become God like and can hear millions of peoples’ thoughts and voices at once. Just saying that you can read people’s minds when you die is making yourself out to be God. Praying to someone who has died is giving them God like status. You are making them out to be a God. A false God.
Second, we can all agree that heaven is a wonderful place where there is no suffering or pain or agony. If we start saying that people in heaven can hear all our thoughts and voices, then we are giving them misery and pain and agony with all our pain and misery and agony when we pray. Think about it. Our child just was diagnosed with cancer and is going to die and we are in pain asking for help from people in heaven bringing them pain thinking about our situation. Our child was raped and tortured and we are praying to people in heaven to help us. Our Child is in jail and is looking at life in prison. Imagine millions and billions of such horrific events and prayers that are sent out to people in heaven to listen to and deal with all day everyday for eternity. They would be suffering just as much as we are suffering. That would put them in a living hell not heaven. God and God alone can hear our thoughts and voices and our suffering and pain and agony and deal with it.
Since Jesus Christ died for us and our sins, we can now have our own personal relationship with God and come directly to God for all of our prayers and needs. God will not turn away a single prayer. He may not answer our prayers the way we want it or when we want it. He answers prayers on his timing because God knows what is best for us but he hears all of our prayers.
We can ask others to join us in prayer and to pray for us. Living people who can hear us. The more people we can join in prayer, the more we bring others closer to God through our prayers. When we pray with others, we fellowship and we grow spiritually. Iron sharpens iron. The people of faith helps others grow in faith together. The people in heaven do not need to grow closer to God. They are with God already. They spend their time worshiping and praising God in heaven. They do not worry about the things on this world because they put their trust and faith in God to handle and take care of things of this world.
Ok, Jesus said to Pray to the Father, he didn’t mention to pray to anyone else. Jesus said the only way to the Father was through Jesus Himself, praying to the Father in Jesus Name. No saint, not even Mary, is above Jesus.
Firstly, The bible never disagrees within itself. There are 2 or 3 verses which say it is abominable to God if we entertain the dead and we should never try contacting them.
Secondly, everything Jesus went through was so we could have direct access to God Himself. By praying to saints or Mary you are directly disobeying Gods word and also disrespecting what Jesus did for us all.
The pope is pure Idolatry. My heart is for all people to know God through Jesus. All the religious acts Catholicism reply on are only going to distance you from God. You don’t get close to God by works. You do it by accepting His love for you and loving Him back by having a heart for His word.
Please Catholic people just ask God. Mary and the saints have their reward in heaven. They do not need our praises.
God says do not make statues yet Catholicism is stacked with them.
Check your 10 commandments the Catholic church altered them.
I pray to our God and Father that His truth will penetrate your hearts minds and spirits. Amen x
Amen 🙏❤️
“Of course for those in heaven there is no need for prayers, so the prayers of the saints are for those on earth.” Despite the fact that there isn’t indication that these saints are in heaven but you know, interpreting scripture with random assumptions and not the scripture itself is always going to go great.
I know right? a lot of parts in this article really thick me off
“If saints are praying for us, why not implore them with something specific?” Because there is nothing in the bible telling us to do that? Is there anywhere in the bible that specifically says that you should pray to someone other than Jesus/God?
The prayers of Saints in Revelation may be the prayers of Saints while living on earth and other saints who are currently living. Everyone who loves God are Saints.
You said Mark 12:24-27.. that ,”This Scripture verse reinforces that those who die in faith are not dead.”
You should reread it properly for there is no such things on this verse. How can you add things that are not in the bible.. be careful on what Revelation says on what you add on the bible coz this will add to you punishment.. dont force your teachings which are not sighted on the bible!
if that is your reasoning na buhay sila. And not considered dead coz of their faith.. and given na lahat ng namatay with faith is considered alive. Kindly explain Revelation 20:11-15..
Bakit p kailangan buhayin ung mga patay if your teaching is that the dead are people with no faith.. At bakit ang ibang patay ay niligtas given that the dead have no faith.. you should have a better fine line what does this dead and living really means. You are even teaching sign of the cross na wala sa bible..
Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
Ingat kayo sa dinadagdag niyo na wala sa biblia!
My suggestion is that you review Exodus Chapter 20:1-6., Luke 1:26-38, 46-56. Mary should be venerated for she is the mother of Jesus Christ the Messiah Our Lord, however she clearly states in her song of Mary (Luke 1:46-56) that she is the Lords humble maidservant. I was born and raised Catholic on Long Island and an altar server for 5 years, but I departed the Catholic religion when the Lord opened my eyes to the errors of the Catholic Faith. I know there are God fearing persons inside the Catholic faith, I have many friends and relatives who are such persons. My prayer is either the Catholic faith reform itself of its errors or that the Lord calls all who are God fearing out of the Catholic Faith. Paul, in Galatians 1:6-9 stated if anyone, either a person or an angel comes preaching another Gospel other than the one he preached, let them be accursed! What was the Gospel Paul preached? It was that we are saved by Faith alone and by Grace alone, not of works that anyone should boast…Catholicism is a Gospel of works and imparted Grace achieved by and through those works and the Sacraments… that is a different Gospel, period!
…… saints wants us to pray to god not to them…..bcs they are not looking at us and expecting our prayers they will be praising and worshiping god all the time …..people those who are praying to saints mostly think god will not hear my prayer bcs am a sinner so i will ask saint to do tat for me ……so lord wants us to have faith to ask him directly bcs he is not a cruel god he is lovable and kind …….tats y he said if ur mother forget u tn i wont frget u……..no saints died for u but jesus died fr u …..and if u love really jesus u will obey his teachings once u start obeying his teachings u will have the faith to talk and pray directly
I agree with you Mary. Mary the mother of Jesus Christ was a humble and blessed servant of the Lord. She was picked to carry our Savior and give birth in purity of her virginity. BUT, SHE WAS NOT THE MEDIATOR, SHE TODAY IS NOT THE MEDIATOR. ( 1 Timothy Ch 2; 5-6 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. ) Emily Cavins and of the Catholic religion, heed to the Word of God, for even ALL THE SCRIPTURE YOU USE DOES NOT PLACE HER AS A MEDIATOR. Only Christ, He and He alone is our Salvation. Imagine worship is against the commandments therefore, your worship goes to the satan whom has deceived you and you have allowed yourself to be deceived.
( Hebrews Ch2; 5-9)
The Founder of Salvation
5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere,
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honour,[a]
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honour because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. ****SO KNOW THIS, JESUS CHRIST, HE AND ONLY HE, IS THE TRUTH, THE LIGHT, THE WAY, THE ALPHA (BEGINNING) THE OMEGA (END). (Matthew Ch27; 50-54) 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son[i] of God!” *****JESUS AND HE ALONE HAS TORN THE VEIL THAT EXISTED BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, NO OE ELSE WAS FOUND WORTHY, NO ONE, BUT HE AND HE ALONE!!! ****I pray the Holy Spirit over all whom read this message, IN HE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!!!! AMEN….(FYI HE (JESUS CHRIST) IS THE AMEN!!!!!Beware of those around you that seek to deceive you and distract you to worship other then Him and Him alone. Love your God with all your heart, let the reader understand and set prayer and guard upon your heart. Abba, Father, they are yours as I am.
I’m a little curious as to how all the Catholics here feel about “The Last Pope” Francis? I myself, feel their is something VERY wrong with him.
Raised Catholic, left that nonsense a long time ago … they don’t know the same God and Jesus that the bible knows … hogwash. Catholics are so missing the point, and we ONLY NEED TO PRAY TO GOD OR JESUS, no one else. No one in heaven is any closer (what God needs proximity to hear us .. laughable at best … ) People wake up .. Catholics are so horribly wrong in so many ways … read the bible .. God is the only one to confess our sins too … not a priest, not a man, not a human, not anyone else, but God !
Are you saying that these saints have the ability like God to hear millions of prayers at the same time? Even angels don’t have that ability.
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]
I wanted to share a few verses from the Quran. We may agree to disagree on some things, but hopefully we all agree that Mary (peace be upon her) was a great woman.
“And when the angels said: O Mary, God has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above (all) the women of the world.” Quran 3:42
“and Mary, daughter of Imran. She guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her from Our spirit. She accepted the truth of her Lord’s words and Scriptures: she was truly devout.” Quran 66:12
“The Messiah, son of Mary, was not more than a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; and his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food [like other mortals]. See how clear We make these signs for them; yet see how deluded they are.” Quran 5:75
“O People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians), do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was not more than a messenger of God and His word, directed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not say ‘Three’- desist, that is better for you- God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.” Quran 4:171
” If saints are praying for us, why not implore them with something specific? ” That’s a bit of a stretch no ma’am? A wee bit of an escalation.
People do.
Research the miracles required to affirm that somebody is a “saint”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Causes_of_Saints
I do give them specific petitions. You ask your friends and family on earth to pray for you- and your intention, say…for a relative with cancer….knowing fully that all of these people are imperfect sinners. Some may forget. Some may pray in disrespectful ways. Why would you not call upon the saints in heaven….living with Jesus in their perfected state- to pray for your intention too? You trust a fellow sinner before you trust someone already purified and perfected, who IS with the Lord? It makes no sense. There is an entire resource of intercessors in heaven who love you and want to help you. Use them. That has to be their greatest delight. Think about being in heaven and seeing the struggles of your loved ones on earth. Would you not go to the Lord in person to ask for their relief? THAT, my friend, is intercession of the saints.
My uncle was talking about this as well a few days ago but I prayed over it a thousand times in my lifetime and the Lord/God has always led me to pray to Him and to Him alone. Also I’ve not asked anyone on Earth to pray for me either. Btw I know all about the glorified state and the Catholic stance on this because I used to pray to them as well. Now I can’t convince you about this because it’s not my job, it’s the Lord’s job but what I can tell is there is something amiss and the Lord doesn’t want this in all my prayers and about these things, the Holy Spirit has inspired me. There is plenty of scripture and the life of Jesus to support this as well but I think the best way to figure things out is to search for absolute truth in the strength of the Lord. Rule of thumb would be test everything, test the spirits that guide you etc My job is to just talk about the truth that is revealed to me. And if you notice you just presented a straw man argument I’ll let you figure out why this is the case.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me”.
NOBODY, but Jesus.
Here is a great website with many Bible verses supporting the fact that praying to anyone (or anything) other than God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ is wrong – for any reason – wrong, period. http://biblereasons.com/praying-to-saints/
Amen!
What Do You Blessed Souls Not Understand? Jesus Christ Is God.. Why Are You Prayin to Mary? It just doesn’t make Sense.. The Curtain was Torn in Two. No longer are We to Go through a Priest to offer Sacrifice for Our Sins. Jesus took My Sin Upon Himself.
Christ Said, ‘It Is Finished’
Done! His Expressed Purpose had been Completed and He gave up the Ghost.
Stop Undermining My Savior by Lifting the Creature above the Creator!
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Timothy 3:5 KJV
You may like this guy.
An ex-rabidly-anti-catholic scholar.
He explores “It is finished”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1yAvrVoYzo
Why do we pray to Mary?
Do you really want to know?
Can I presume you understand “Typology” in The Bible, as applied to Christ? (New Adam; New Moses: New David etc).
Prefigures in the Old Testament are always fulfilled & excelled in The New Testament.
Protestants (& many Catholics) are woefully unaware of The Typology of Mary which is astounding.
e.g. Look up Mary as Ark of the Covenant.https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/mary-the-ark-of-the-new-covenant
or, Mary as The New Eve” from the Early Fathers.
But re. PRAYING TO MARY
Remember firstly….Jesus is “The Messiah” which means “annointed Davidic King”. The Angel confirms it to Mary thus….
“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David”, Liuke 1:32
The Davidic Kings had Queens
THEIR MOTHER WAS THEIR QUEEN (too many wives)
The Queen had a job called “Gebirah”
It was to intercede with the king for her people and the King would never refuse her.
Jesus is The Eternal Davidic King?
Well; is his mother his queen? Yes; See Revelation 12 Jesus mum is in Heaven with a 12-starred-crown(Israel). & she gives birth to him.
Does she intercede for us? Yes Jesus first miracle at Cana is done at her intercession for the people who have no wine…
(John 2:3-) “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
(1)Why does Jesus call his mum “woman”?… Because that was Eve’s name before she fell. She was “The Woman”. Mother of all the living.
(2)Why does he defer to his mother (Queen) against his will?
Because she is interceding as his Gebirah.
It makes more sense now doesn’t it….. honestly?
Without this you have Jesus mouthing his mum and not knowinhg his own mind!
Try reading Revelations from 11:19 through Chapter12 (The chapter divisions are added)
You have Mary shown as
(1)God’s Ark
(2)Queen of Heaven
(3)Mother of the Messiah
(4)New Eve, opponent of Satan, as Gen3:15 The woman who with her seed will crush the serpent/dragon/satan
(5)Mother of those who follow God’s commandments (The Church)
So Jesus last act on the cross in John is to say to his mother & John “Behold thy mother” & “WOMAN…..behold thy son”.
“Behold” means “here is” …. a statement of cosmic reality…..not just a new domestic arrangement.
No-one is undermining our Saviour Christ.
You are saved into a people & into His family
You have His Father abba
You have Jesus as a brother…..which makes his mum your mum….and he just wants you to meet her.
Are you saying I want a loving son relationship with God-the-Father & a personal relationship with Jesus, but I want nothing to do with your mum Jesus.
She is God’s creature; and his masterpiece.
It does not “take-away” from an Artist when you honour their masterpiece. They delight in that.
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as “intercessors” before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more “direct access” to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can “approach the throne of grace with confidence.”
First Timothy 2:5 declares, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
1 Timothy 2:5
Think again!
in what basis you believe that we Catholics are doing the right thing?!!
god gave human the ability to think. it is clearly said on bible also. still we do it.
Note** im a Catholic
There is no biblical support whatsoever for praying to Mary or saints. We don’t need another intercessor. The only intercessor we need is the Holy Spirit. He is the only One who can intercede for us. You are taking a mere human and giving her God-like qualities and titles. She is just a person. A person chosen to do something amazing, but just a person. Also, she is no longer a virgin, seeing as James was the brother of Jesus.
Hi Devon,
(1)Your response assumes “Sola Scriptura”.
This is a false (modern & Protestant)” tradition of men” .
It is found nowhere in scripture itself (& is therefore self-contradicting). Moreover scripture itself contradicts this false doctrine of Protestantism, many, many, times, highlighting “the traditions you must hold fast to” and that “the CHURCH is the pillar & foundation of truth”
You could, from scripture alone, easier work up a doctrine of “Sola Ecclesia” or “Sola Tradititum” than sola scriptura!
You must be able to see, from the history of Protestantism (now 47,000 sects), that “Sola scriptura” (without an infallible interpreter ) was merely an expedient cry to license the rejection of authority of God’s Church and the unleashing of the ego…..where everyone was his own pope!
By an objective analysis….it has run into Babel.
(2) James was not the “brother” of Jesus as we understand it…. because
(a)If Jame was a son of Mary, Jesus last act on the cross was a sin and a gross offence!! He could not give his mum away to a “stranger” according to Jewish tradition. (Gospel of John: “Behold thy mother”)
(b) “James, the brother of the Lord” was an Apostle. But the James’s listed as Apostles are “son of Alpheus & son of Zebedee” …no son of Joseph
(3)Mary is “just a person” as you say. But that is not the last word. Our God is so infinitely humble that he was born of her, in stable filth, and lived “subject to her” for 30 of his 33 years.
His first miracle, and the start of his mission, is at her (Gebirah) intercession in Cana.
Mary is “just a person”
Yes. But she is a person who is “Mother of The Son” & “Bride of The Holy Spirit”
(He “overshadowed her” so that she would conceive of God: He does not do one-night-stands, nor divorce. How can you think that? This was FOREVER)
She has relationships with the Trinity that are unique and yet it is what we (as children of this New Eve) are called to become.
She is the first of the wholly-redeemed.
She is “Theotokos” ….. “God-bearer” “Mother-of-God-The -Son-Incarnate” …..Look at the detail. It does NOT say she preceded God in time.
The alternative is, that you are a Nestorian, believing in TWO persons in Christ.
The hypostatic Union (Doctrine of The Catholic Church….accepted parasitically by most Protestants) says there are TWO Nature but only ONE person in Christ.
Mary is Mother of The One Whole Person of Christ .
The Nestorian heresy claimed that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ and attempted to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one
divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation.
It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers, recognized but which modern Protestants repeat when they deny Theotokos.
The article is informative, insightful but I am still going to just fear, refer and serve God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. To me, as a evangelical protestant Christian with some Messianic beliefs and views, Mary the mother of Jesus is just a mortal human jew who was the biological Earthly mom of the Nazarene Messiah. I will not pray to her, just to the Almighty God and Jesus Christ. I respect the Catholics for praying to her but that’s as far as I will go.
I don’t understand this “connection” between Mary and the saints and the believersfollowers of the Church Body of Christ on Earth. Is the connection somehow proven in one of the Scripture passages. Is it divine, holy and on the same legitimate wavelength as the 3 Holy Supernatural Triune Beings? Mary the mother of Jesus cannot intercede for us like the Messiah Son and the Holy Spirit does. Can Mary do any miracles, have any holy power or answer prayers? Where is she sitting in the Heavenly realm?
It’s also strange that the Catholic pay a whole lot of attention to the mother Mary and not as much to Joseph. I mean it did take 2 . . . well, actually 3 or more if you total up all the parties involved, including the Almighty God the Father (of course), the Holy Spirit and the archangel Gabriel. As well, supporting individuals include Zechariah, Elizabeth and of course John the Baptist.
Jesus is the Christ, and can do what the saints, Mary, and others that have passed on can Not do.
Because he is the ” seed( son)” of God. Unlike the saints, Mary, and other souls that were conceived by a earthly flesh father.
I think if someone could post such scriptures it would help many trying to understand the act of praying to the living souls passed on.
Or the high level of devotion placed on Mary and the saints over the level of devotion that is given to The Christ Jesus.
I read one post that reads as if Jesus was a self absorbed spoiled child that never pays attention to the earthly peoples prayer,
unless his mother or the saints nag him to look at the prayers they have collected.
I don’t feel The Christ Jesus would require his mother nor the saints to take note and relay the messages in order for him to take notice.
Jesus was and adult when he was crucified, and had already put away childish things like requiring his mother to tell him to do his homework, so to speak.
The way his post read was as if he though Jesus intellect or placement with the Almighty Father God, was beneath his mother and the saints.
God is a jealous God. So I don’t see him being good with being down graded.
So that post was a cause for pause. Not saying he spoke for the masses.
PRAYING TO MARY IS A WASTE OF TIME SHE CAN’T HEAR YOU. JESUS HIMSELF SAYS THAT HE IS THE TRUTH IS THE LIFE NO ONE COMES TO HIS FATHER UNLESS IT IS THROUGH HIM NOT MARY
If you take the trouble to read my posts above you will get scripture galore for what Mary is…..but some common sense perhaps???
How did Jesus choose to come to us? Through Mary!
Is Jesus your brother? Yes?…… then who is your mum?
“The body of Christ” comes from who?
So whoe is Mother-of The Body of Christ?
Are you part of it? Then she is your Mum.
At The Transfiguration Jesus appears with Moses & Elijah (who are alive) but you think Jesus let his own mother’s womb…..The Ark in which He, The Living Word of God, was formed rot in a grave!!!!!!!
You can only understand the importance of Mary through TYPOLOGY
e.g. Jesus is new Adam; Mary is new EVE. That’s why he calls Mary “Woman” (Eve’s name before the fall) at Cana & on the cross.
She listens to the angel & says “Yes” to God;
Eve listened to the serpent disobeying God.
She (As New Eve) brings the good-fruit (of her womb) back-to-the-tree-of life….and lets it stay there suffering with Him. So all is repaired and we must eat of the fruit (His body & blood) to have eternal life (Read John 6)
Also look up Mary as “Ark of The Covenant”. You will be shocked
(Try Scott Hahn on Youtube on Mary….an ex protestant catholic-baiter)
Also As Davidic Queen-Mother (Gebirah).
Then read REv 11:19 following (Chapter divisions are added) Mary IS IN HEAVEN rapidly depicted as (1)The Ark (2) The gebirah Queen (3)The Mother of Christ (4)”The Woman” of Genesis is conflict with the dragon/serpent/satan
We don’t have the same mother, but we have the same Father. You can’t seriously believe that Mary is my mother…she was the earthly mother of Jesus. And that’s it. Maybe Jesus called her Woman because…wait for it…she was a woman?
Do you address your mum as “Woman”?
(She is….wait for it…..a woman too, is she not?)
Is that how you would address her in your very last dying action? (When Jesus says to Mary “Woman behold thy son” )
“Woman” was Eve’s name before the fall.
Mary does not fall…. but reverses Eve’s disobedience. She has brought “The Good Fruit” (of her womb) back to the tree (of life) and let it hang there “bone of my (her) bone; flesh of (her) flesh”. The fall is reversed!
She becomes Mother of John….and of all believers.
Do you doubt this?……
She is Mother of Christ’s body (You said so yourself “earthly”)
Christ’s body is The Church
Ergo, She is Mother of The Church
i.e. Mother of ALL Christians
And, therefore, New Eve ….”Woman”
But, if you were a bible-believer, with eyes to see, you could see this in Rev 11:19 thru 12.
(original has no chapters)
Mary is portrayed as,
God’s Ark (in heaven, by the way),
Queen of Heaven, (Davidic Gebirah)
Mother of The Messiah,
Opponent of The dragon/Serpent/Satan and Mother of “her other offspring”
(Referring directly back TO EVE Gen 3:15 )
The two bookends of the bible.
Old Eve is the channel bringing death into the world
New Eve is the channel bringing new life into the world.
You only need to “explain away” the rich depths here because you are not Catholic or Orthodox. You have to support the new TRADITION of beliefs of protestantism which often means ignoring scripture!
How can you explain away these things in scripture?
e.g.
Luke’s clear referencing of Mary as The Ark of The (New) Covenant (Luke 1:39….)
When Mary goes to visit Elizabeth (100 miles walk) to….
“The hill country of Judea”
John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeths womb at the sound of Mary’s voice
Elizabeth says “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?”
Mary stays 3 months there.
The whole house is blessed
EXACT REPLAY of 2 Samuel 6
The Ark is recovered from theft
It is taken to “The hill country of Judea”
David leaps & dances before it
He says “Who am I that the Ark of the Lord should come to visit me?”
The Ark stays there 3 months
The whole house is blessed
Is Luke a fool? Or is he a learned Jew with intimate knowledge of the Old Testament?
So how is his writing an accident?
It can NOT be accidental. But he writes for those with eyes to see & ears to hear?
Devon,
You say
“she was the earthly mother of Jesus. And that’s it.”
Where on earth do you get this?
Does The God of Love…. pick up a woman to be his mum, spend 30 years with her, & then just discard her?
Was Jesus a good Jew?
Their 4th commandment “Glorify your father & your mother”. He glorified His father & dumps His mum!! Some good Jewish boy?….I don’t think so.
Come on….seriously!
Hi Devon, Do you address your mum as “Woman”?
(She is….wait for it…..a woman too, is she not?)
Is that how you would address her in your very last dying action? (When Jesus says to Mary “Woman behold thy son” )
“Woman” was Eve’s name before the fall.
Mary does not fall…. but reverses Eve’s disobedience. She has brought “The Good Fruit” (of her womb) back to the tree (of life) and let it hang there “bone of my (her) bone; flesh of (her) flesh”. The fall is
reversed!
So she becomes Mother of John….and of all believers.
Do you doubt this?……
She is Mother of Christ’s body (You said so yourself “earthly”)
Christ’s body is The Church
Ergo,
She is Mother of The Church i.e. Mother of ALL Christians
And, therefore, New Eve (mother of all the living) ….”Woman”
But, if you were a bible-believer, with eyes to see, you could see this in Rev 11:19 thru 12. (original has no chapters)
Mary is portrayed in rapid, immediate succession, as,
God’s Ark (in heaven, by the way),
Queen of Heaven, (Davidic Gebirah)
Mother of The Messiah,
Opponent of The Dragon/Serpent/Satan and
Mother of “her other offspring” (Referring directly back TO EVE Gen 3:15 )
The two bookends of the bible.
Old Eve is the channel bringing death into the world
New Eve is the channel bringing new life into the world.
You only need to “explain away” the rich depths here because you are not Catholic or Orthodox. You have to support the new TRADITION of beliefs of protestantism which often means ignoring scripture!
How can you explain away these things in scripture?
e.g.
Luke’s clear referencing of Mary as
The Ark of The (New) Covenant (Luke 1:39….)
When Mary goes to visit Elizabeth (100 miles walk) to….
“The hill country of Judea”
John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeths womb at the sound of Mary’s voice
Elizabeth says “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?”
Mary stays 3months there.
The whole house is blessed
EXACT REPLAY of 2 Samuel 6
The Ark is recovered from theft
It is taken to “The hill country of Judea”
David leaps & dances before it
He says “Who am I that the Ark of the Lord should come to visit me?”
The Ark stays there 3 months
The whole house is blessed
Is Luke a fool? Or is he a learned Jew with
intimate knowledge of the Old Testament?
So how is his writing an accident?
It can NOT be accidental. But he writes for those
with eyes to see & ears to hear?
—————
You say “she was the earthly mother of
Jesus. And that’s it.”
Where on earth do you get this? Your tradition!
Even Luther Calvin & Zwingli retained much Catholic devotion to her.
This is the modern protestant slide towards Gnosticism.
Does The God of Love…. pick up a woman to be his mum, spend 30 years with her, & then just discard her?
Was Jesus a good Jew?
Their 4th commandment “Glorify your father
& your mother”. He glorified His father & dumps His
mum!! Some good Jewish boy?….I don’t think so.
Come on….seriously!
If Jesus is the perfect man, he loves his mum far
more than any other man ever did, or ever will.
The flesh he took from her she gave willingly…”be it done unto me according to thy word” although she could have been stoned for being with child!
She gave to God, “flesh of her flesh”….to be scourged & pierced. He had no human father. His human heart was like hers, his human ways like hers….his eyes like hers, no doubt!
She is The TRUE Ark of The Covenant…..dimly pre-figured in the old.
Is this Ark, the womb that formed Jesus,
The very vessel of the INCARNATION, that put flesh onto eternal-life……rotting in a grave?
Your (modern) Protestant view of a disposable Mary
keeps God separate from the flesh Mary gave Him, & is Gnostical.
Our God is a God of Love who never just uses anybody…. let alone
His mum. He glorifies her, in obedience to His own commandment.
Moreover…..The God of the Bible is a God who “covenants”.
So the Holy Spirit does not “use” women; nor do “one-night-stands;”
nor divorce!
Thus Mary became The actual Bride of The Holy Spirit,…..for all time,…. and all eternity, when she “was overshadowed by The Holy Spirit” (Luke 1:35)
If you’ll take the time to reflect on Scripture, it states, clearly mind you, that the Blessed Mother was born without original sin. Therefore, she WAS NOT just simply a woman. Furthermore, she gave birth to the Christian Savior of the world. One which changed the course of religious belief forever more. Perhaps, you could name another “mother” as wonderfully holy as the Blessed Mother. Oh wait… I bet “dollars to donuts” you’re unable.
where does it state that Mary was born without original sin?
Read the fastidious preparations for The Old Ark of The Covenant.
Read how Uzzah was smitten just for touching it.
If The Old Ark, made of wood & gold, had to be so pristine because it would hold
(1)The word of God on stone tablets
(2)Manna from the Desert
(3)Aaron’ high-priestly staff.
What of the New LIVING Ark that fulfills, completes & excells The Old Ark.
Mary contained, in the Tabernacle of her womb.
(1)The LIVING WORD of God
(2)The LIVING Bread of Heaven (Read John 6)
(3)The LIVING true High Priest
In The Ark of her womb she gave God human flesh. Tiny hands that would be pierced; a noble head that would be crowned with thorns; flesh that would be ripped & torn ….all for you & for me.
Did you look up Steve Ray or Scott Hahn talks on Mary on YouTube….or Typology & Mary?
If you fear that these things may be true you are fleeing from truth.
I would love to have that chapter and verse as well, if you actually receive it.
The only thing that can be found is a catholic story about Joachim and Anne.
Mary’s parents are not mentioned in the Bile anywhere.
I think it was supposed to be from the Gospel of James, the brother of Jesus..
that was never allowed into the canon because of skepticism that it was not actually written by Jesus brother James. I think it was a apocryphal writings,
Don’t quate me on that it has been a while ago, when I read that peace of literature.
But it should be a easy research.
So Mary had both a earthly mother and father.
Unlike the Christ having Mary as his earthly mother and the Heavenly father God as his father.
Could you please elaborate on the Scriptures which “clearly state” that Mary was born without original sin?
lol, the “wait for it” got me.
God chose Mary to be the earthly mother of the Christ.
Just like he chose your birth mother to be your earthly mother.
God is a God of love and order, not confusion.
Me and my oldest brother have the same father but different mothers.
Because his mother passed soon after he was born and my father married my mom.
Yet are still siblings. And we both a result of his seed.
Just like we are Gods children and made in His image…
I made this reply to another above, but you could not have seen it…
Who told you Mary was dead?
Matt 22:32
Jesus
tells off The sadducees ……” I am the God of Abraham, the God of
Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the
living.”
Mary is no more dead than Abraham. Are you a Sadducee?
Now
Read Revelations 11:19 ….following (NB. The Chapter divisions are
added for our convenience & are no part of the original)
God’s Ark is Mary (11:19). She is the Ark of the New Covenant.
What 3 objects were in The Ark of The Old Covenant that was so holy?
(a)The Word of God on the stone tablets;
(b)Manna. The bread from heaven to feed god’s people.
(c) Aaron’s priestly Rod.
These three (inanimate) objects made the Ark so holy that Uzzah was struck dead for touching it.
By
the power of the Holy Spirit (and with her consent) Mary gave living
flesh to these three things in one person….Jesus,who is
(a)The Living Word of God
(b) The Living bread of Life &
(c) The High Priest and the sacrificial lamb.
The following verses show her as “Queen of Heaven” .
If Jesus has “The Throne of His father David” (As promised in the
Annunciation in Luke) ……His MOTHER is his QUEEN Read 1Kings &
2Kings (And look up Gebirah)
It goes on to portray Mary as The New
Eve in conflict with the Dragon/Serpent/Satan as predicted by God in
Genesis. Then as mother of the redeemed & personification of The
Church.
You never ask a friend to pray for you, then?
Yes of course. But I prefer to ask people alive on earth
Why?
Aren’t those with God, in His arms, as good?
No need to SCREAM at anyone. You’re point is well taken; however, purely misinformed. The Blessed Mother is there for all to ask for assistance. Just as God gave human’s free will in all actions/thoughts. Now, whether one wishes to take advantage of her intercession or any one of the many Saints in heaven is, once again, our choice. Personally, I’ll take all the assistance given freely from God. Life is difficult enough at times.
The article is well written & right on point according to Roman Catholic beliefs. Once again, not using all the arsenal given to us to prepare for our eventual death & entry into heaven is quite up to each individual.
Great article Mary. Thank you!
Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior intercedes for us! Not Mary or the saints.
Jesus tell us How and to whom to pray to “Our Father which art in Heaven….”
AND
Who to pray for! Which ones Self &one another!!! AMEN
May the HOLY SPIRIT of TRUTH
Set you free from all unrighteousness.
Have you never asked a friend to pray for you?
Tell me who Gebirah was?
and what was her function?
and how this connects to Cana?
I was raised Catholic but I became a born again Christian at age 24 on April 14, 1974, and started reading the Bible for the very first time, (the Bible was never part of Catholic upbringing).
A few points in a nutshell:
-Peter: “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.” In the Bible, EVERY believer is a saint. Writers of the New Testament books refer to all the believers as saints.
-Mary knew she was a sinner and needed a Savior. “and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,”
-Mary is not a mediator. Only Jesus is qualified for that. Timothy 2:5 “There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and man—the man, the Messiah Jesus.”
-Jesus is the ONLY way anyone can come to God, and that is because He alone paid the price for total forgiveness of sins. He alone was sinless and able to pay that price; not Mary, not Peter or any of the rest of the apostles.
-Revelation 19:10. “Then I bowed down at the angel’s feet to worship him, but he said to me, “Do not worship me! I am a servant like you and your brothers and sisters who have the message of Jesus. Worship God, because the message about Jesus is the spirit that gives all prophecy.”
-John 14:13-14 “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (Nothing is ever said about asking Jesus through His mother. Ask HIM directly. You talk to God, in Jesus’ name.)
You preach…..but you haven’t read the posts above or you could not be so misinformed.
There are a minimum of 2 or 3 Bible readings every day in every Catholic Church in the world. How could you possibly think that the Bible isn’t part of Catholic teaching? In fact, the homily is based upon those daily Bible readings. If you attend a Catholic mass every day for 3 years, you would have heard the Bible in almost its entirety. (I believe that some of the “begats” have been left out.) CLEARLY you weren’t raised Catholic because you don’t know the most basic facts about it! Furthermore, it was the Catholic Church that gave the Bible to the world. It was the church that decided on what was to be included. Martin Luther, more than 1,000 years later, decided to remove 7 books that he didn’t like! That’s why the Protestant “Bible” is shorter than ours.
Passages are read from OT and NT scripture at each mass. But the thing is, catholics really don’t understand scripture and they really don’t read and search scripture to find out if everything is true that the papacy speaks.
Catholics don’t even bother reading scripture for themselves, they are not told, they are not encouraged to read and study God’s word the bible.
I was raised catholic and I had no interest in reading and searching scripture for the truth, until I began comparing its traditions and the catechism to the bible, I found the truth and I left the catholic church. I give all to Jesus.
But how can the priest read passages from the OT and the NT during mass and feel comfortable thinking he has lead the people to Christ, when in fact he himself and the papacy denies scripture alone as being sufficient unto salvation?
Mary, that is because it is not. Tradition is every bit as important. You protestants think you own the bible and you are the only ones who read it. That is your big starting point, well it’s just not the way it is, as Catholics we are encouraged to read it every day, and many do, why not it’s our bible not yours. In saying this I don’t mean the bible is not for everyone, but The Catholic Church put it together, decided which books were in and which were out. So don’t be so smug like you are the masters of it, you are not. I also find that bible aloners always want to be the ones that ask the questions, but never give any answers. You people are always asking questions like, ” where in the bible does it say we are to pray to mary”, If you are looking for it directly you will not find it, but it is there in the book of Revelation teaches that the prayers they offer for us “saints” is an integral part of the eternal worship given to God. Well if we are encouraged to pray to the saints, and mary is the greatest saint of them all, then yes it does say to pray to mary in the bible. When you ask a Catholic that knows his faith, you will always get the same answer, it may be worded a bit differently but it’s basically the same. You ask a protestant, a bible aloner, and you may get as many as 30.000 different answers, one for each denomination. And lastly I started this saying you always ask all the questions but never want to give any answers, so here is your big chance. Show me in the bible where it says sola scriptura. Come on now, you can’t even show me the main point in your flawed philosophy.
your words sound a lot like Matt.
https://carm.org/did-roman-catholic-church-give-us-our-bible
The True church is not brick and mortar nor a certain denominational religion.
Because most religions add in traditions of man that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ which they are supposed to following words.
Causing saints to focus on things other than The Christ and God.
And some religious traditions conflict with Jesus Christ teachings all together.
And this is why it says, ” you will know them by their fruits”.
Follow the laws of the land until they conflict with Gods true word.
The true church is made up of all the true followers of the Christ Jesus teachings all over the world.
Followers that do their best to live according to Jesus Christ teaching in spite of, and over any traditions of man.
Christian: A follower of Jesus Christ teachings.
Hot – cold – luke warm ?
Catholics are supposed to read The Bible.
It is a Catholic Book, compiled by the Catholic Bishops in Councils around 400AD. (I.e. after 370 years of Catholicism without a Canon of scripture)
Protestantism (or any “Bible-only” sects) wasn’t even possible until the printing press in the 16th Century made books cheap enough for the few literate people to get books.
Catholics can outdo you in proof-texting but Sola Scriptura itself is unscriptural.
Mary was NOT a sinner just because she calls God “my saviour”.
If I am about to fall into a pit……God can save me by pulling me out; OR He can save me by stopping me from falling in.
This is what the Catholic Church teaches about HOW Mary was saved.
As Ark of The New Covenant she was “pure gold, inside & out” prepared by God “as his dwelling place” & His Tabernacle amongst men.
Look up Scott Hahn (YouTube) or Steve Ray on Mary. Or look at “Journey Home”….stories of hundreds of Protestant pastors, professors, historians who became Catholic despite often losing their livelihoods.
As regards Mary a Mediater ….She is Gebirah (Davidic-Queen-Mother). Gebirah (like Esther) intercedes for her people with The Davidic King (Jesus) & she is NEVER refused.
Now, you can finally understand why Jesus does his first miracle at Cana at his mother’s intercession….even though He says “My hour has not come….”
You are looking for a “pruned-down” gospel……but the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.
If you will ask your questions of CATHOLIC SOURCES or read THE CATECHISM you will suely return
All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God – Romans 3:23
If you are insisting that when Paul wrote “All” here, he meant absolutely “ALL”…..then Jesus, who was fully human, sinned as well
Jesus was fully human. But born through the holly spirit, he wasnt born like me and you or mary. Mary with due respect was holly, but was born just lime me and you
Hi theMaster
The God of the Bible is a God who “covenants”.
So the Holy Spirit does not “use” women; nor do “one-night-stands;” nor divorce!
Thus Mary became The actual Bride of The Holy Spirit,…..for all time,…. and all eternity, when she “was overshadowed by The Holy Spirit” (Luke 1:35)
Mary was not “forced” …..there is a word for that! And Jesus parents (Mary & The Holy Spirit) were in a holy covenant. So Jesus was not illegitimate either!
In her very person she has the closest relationship possible with each person of The Trinity.
She was born like you & me indeed. But when
God the Father created Mary he created a daughter…….to be His own mother.
He prepared her much more carefully than the first Ark of The Covenant was prepared.
For her womb would be the true Tabernacle of God, The Holy-of-Holies, wherein “God
dwelt amongst Men”, when God-the-Son would be incarnated from her…..taking her real flesh.
This does nor make her a Goddess……rather it is God’s act of reaching down….in an act of amazingly-humble, total identification-with mankind……personified in His triple intimate relationship with Mary, the New Eve.
What he has done in Mary, we are all called to be, in perhaps a lesser degree. She is the first & most perfectly redeemed human.
So Mary is not “boasting” in Luke 1:46- she is being modest!
Luke 1:46
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,”
The scale of her involvement with salvation is cosmic. Look up Mary & Typology. The OT is full of her as The Ark; New Eve: Gebirah; The solitary women who destroy the evil one.
You say Jesus was “fully human” …..which he got from Mary (“Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh”…..reversing Adam’s description to Eve)
But unless you are a Nestorian heretic there is ONLY ONE PERSON in Christ….2 natures (Fully God & Fully Man) ….but ONE person.
Many Protestants are unconcious Nestorians thinking Mary only gave birth to Jesus’s humanity.
Mary gave birth to the PERSON Jesus with his two natures. We give birth to persons not natures.
Hi theMaster
I think you meant Jesus was “conceived” of The Holy Spirit….He was “born” of Mary
The God of the Bible is a God who “covenants”.
So the Holy Spirit does not “use” women; nor do “one-night-stands;”
nor divorce!
Thus Mary became The actual Bride of The Holy Spirit,…..for all time,…. and all eternity, when she “was overshadowed by The Holy Spirit” (Luke 1:35)
Mary was not “forced” …..there is a word for that! And Jesus parents
(Mary & The Holy Spirit) were in a holy covenant. So Jesus was not illegitimate either!
In her very person she has the closest relationship possible with each person of The Trinity.
God the Father created Mary as his particular daughter…….to be His
own mother. He prepared her much more carefully than the first Ark
of The Covenant was prepared. For her womb would be the true
Tabernacle of God, The Holy-of-Holies, wherein “God dwelt
amongst Men”, when God-the-Son would be incarnated from
her…..taking her real flesh.
She is Daughter-Mother-Bride to the Three Persons in God!
This does nor make her a Goddess……rather it is God’s act of reaching down….in an act of amazingly-humble, total identification-with mankind……personified in His triple intimate relationship with Mary, the New Eve.
What he has done in Mary, we are all called to be, in perhaps a lesser degree. She is the first & most perfectly redeemed human.
So Mary was not “boasting” in Luke 1:46- she was being
modest!
Luke 1:46
“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my
spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me,”
The scale of her involvement with salvation is cosmic. Look up Mary & Typology. The OT is full of her as The Ark; New Eve: Gebirah; The solitary women who destroy the evil one.
You say Jesus was “fully human” …..which he got from Mary (“Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh”…..reversing Adam’s description to Eve)
But unless you are a Nestorian heretic there is ONLY ONE PERSON in Christ….2 natures (Fully God & Fully Man) ….but ONE
person.
Many Protestants are unconcious Nestorians thinking Mary only gave birth to Jesus’s humanity.
Mary gave birth to the PERSON Jesus with his two natures. We give birth to persons not natures.
That’s why she was declared Theotokos (Mother of God) at the Catholic Council of Ephesus AD431
Why is it a completion of wits, rather than a drive to save souls…
I pray for all to gain a relationship with God, accepting Jesus as their savior.
And being fully immersed Baptized in the Holy trinity.
That is Gods desire for all. but some will fall short.. but we should not push them down while they are trying to grow in Gods word.
Maybe if you see where they are struggling…
Maybe you can give a short to the point with scriptures to answer to the questions they are struggling with.
nothing but love to all.
AMDG
JMJ
Im Catholic everyday I pray to God, Jesus and Mary. If praying to Mary is against God’s wishes then guess Im going to hell then.
I refuse to call you by that name sir/maam, but there are plenty of people from any belief we can name that say the same. Ignorance of earthly law does not excuse us of the consequences, do why would we knowingly reject God’s word, the scripture Matthew Ludu quoted above which describes the intentions of God toward the matter?
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life! Come to Jesus and ask him for forgiveness 🙂 Eternal life is not by our works but by God’s grace. Eternal life is a gift. Even if you have Jesus in your life you will still fall and make mistakes but God will work through you to help you become more like him. It is not about working for heaven but about loving God. No sin after you accept Jesus and trust in him will never snatch you out of God’s hand. Once you are saved you are always God’s child. Focus on Jesus as your lord who can take ALL your sins away past,present, and future except for thinking that you would lose salvation if you fall or get into a major addiction with sin. I am a christian and it happens to me all the time but I know that Jesus has me and he is always willing to help me no matter what mistakes I make whether it is purposeful or repeating sins. By God’s strength we can rely on his grace not by our works to be his child.
Remember salvation is a gift and when you make sin (a mortal sin), you are separated from God and are destined to hell. There is no insurance you can buy.
“No sin after you accept Jesus and trust in him will never snatch you out of God’s hand. Once you are saved you are always God’s child.” Please provide scripture to support, (be sure) one that cannot be reputed by another scripture.
Not God wishes, but wishes of people who doesn’t know better. They should study the bible like in the eyes of a detectives, searching not only what are explicit but also those implicit in the bible.
I think it is great- and I mean that truly and without sarcasm-that those who do not honor Mary or any other saint in heaven come to sites such as this and post their opinions. I think this is evidence of our intrinsic search for meaning as humans and our desire to know God which is a gift from Him. He called us first. I think deep down we desire a better understanding of this Queen Mother whom Christ gave to us as he died on the cross. We have a desire to be loved and to belong to this ecclesiastical family, and having the Church Triumphant praying for us and desiring our holiness is a fantastic thing! It just may be that Mary, who loves you no matter what you believe, has called you here for answers and understanding. May you be blessed with both.
All Christians give honor to Mary as the earthly mother of Christ. Those who claim faith in Christ and in his sacrifice alone give honor to God Almighty through Christ the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Joseph and Mary are people of honor, but Mary was not the mother of God. She was the bearer of Christ in the womb, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The concept of an immaculate conception of Mary is the where many Christians disagree with the RCC position. It is simply not Biblical. The Catholic Christian (and Orthodox) dependence on tradition to support doctrine is where it begins to err.
Where in the Scripture does it tell us that ONLY biblical teachings are to be observed? Christ did not teach sola scriptura because there was nothing yet written down in the NT nor did he teach that one day when the Scriptures are written, they are the ONLY source of theological understanding. In fact, oral tradition was responsible for the passing on of the faith for many years. The term Holy Trinity is not biblical, yet you believe it it. Tradition taught the doctrine of faith long before it was written down. The erring is where protestants want to be their own authority on what is literal, what is figurative, what should be interpreted through a cultural modern lens, etc. For instance, how do you justify divorce? That is clearly against the will of God AND IT IS BIBLICAL? If you cannot commit to what is biblical, yet claim sola scriptura, you confuse others and lose footing in the credibility arena.
This is correct, Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. By Protestant, making the bible as their sole authority is not consistent with 1 Timothy 3:15 …. the church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of truth. It did not say that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth?
Which church? Oh… the cgurcg of Antioch, of course… no the church in Jerusalem… no the Alexandrian… but you claim only the Roman Catholic. That is unacceptable, SIR!
Then tell me which church that has the claim to have link in Christ possessing these divine characteristics, namely, the church is one, the church is holy, the church is heralded throughout the world, and the church is Apostolic.,
I asked the question. I don’t claim my church is exclusive Jose. You answer the question- of course did because you bought their excuse hook, line, and sinker. 2 Tim 3:16 my friend
My friend Donnie, nothing is bought here because these characteristics were inherently manifested by a true church founded by Christ, not hidden and can be physically proven. Incidentally, please give more of those characteristics, not only your claim as not being exclusive, which partly be considered within called heralded….. and seem your church has Christ, since wherever Christ is there, there is Catholic and were heralded throughout the world whose Head is Christ. Donnie, you’re about there, please tell us more so I could be of help to discern them. Thanks.
Donnie, my dear, as to your cited proof, 2 Timothy
3, 16-17 on Sola Scriptura, here,“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
The problem with using 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as a proof text is that no Catholic denies that all scripture is inspired by God. That’s not the question. The question is whether only scripture is inspired by God. For a Protestant to cite this verse is, in fact, to beg the question.: The operative word is “only” a negative proposition that is limiting, suppose I found one? Donnie, you can go out to the world, dig and dig, hoping not to find one. I can find one guided by John 21:25, And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books …. Sorry, Donnie, that won’t work!!
You are right Catholics agree that scripture is inspired but they ignore the part where it says: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
Catholic teaching, nothing is rejected. Please help me find any official proclamation that such was rejected. The Catholic church proclamation, Ex Cathedra is infallible on faith and moral, but not outside it Just find any official church proclamation and on some later date, such was revoked. I am glad to find any if you happen to have one. Catholic Church is present in the first century, in the second century, etc., etc to the tenth century, etc., etc. to the 20th century, to the 21st century, till the end of age as guided by the Holy Spirit, according to the promise, that Jesus will be with them till the end of age. Donnie my friend please tell me any other church existing now among the over 36,000 Protestant denomination, competing among themselves in beliefs and doctrine could ever surpassed the Catholic Church. Outside the church there is no salvation, only in Christ Jesus.’
Donnie my friend, [lease I have to explain. My concern that I might offend non christians when I said, Outside the church there is no salvation. Here I explain: Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings. Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?
Jesus told his followers, “I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: “Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–17). The word translated as “tend” (poimaine) means “to direct” or “to superintend”—in other words, “to govern.” So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.
People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).
Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.
The Church speaks of “implicit desire” or “longing” that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with “a sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).
On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).
You have stated the contradiction. I agree with the RCC on most points other than this assumption that RCC is THE Church, praying to saints, immaculate conception of Mary and the apostolic authority given to the pope. I can agree with what is biblical, the teachings of the apostles only.
On points on the validity of scripture, the teachings of thr Old and New Testament, the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ, the oneness of God in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all are Biblical. These are not merely Catholic, but very much founded on scripture itself, the working of God in creation, in the words of Christ and testimony of the apostles. Take care Jose.
Thanks Donnie on points agreeable to you.
On others you disagree as you mentioned RCC assumption that RCC is THE Church, praying to saints, immaculate conception of Mary and the apostolic authority given to the pope. I can agree with what is biblical, the teachings of the apostles only.
Here is my commitment to you Donnie as a friend. I will be kind and patience without any string attach to respond to all to the best of my ability as lay Catholic pastoral worker, only I am asking you to re write your question in a simple way, possibly number it starting from one (1) that for each question contain only one single point, clearly stated. Please avoid compound question, better assign to a next number. You can get as much number as you can, then give me time to reply. I am a retired person and if I focus on these question, I am sure I can do it, keeping our friendly relation intact. I hope you could give me your time. Thank you.
You mentioned “merely Catholic” where there is no such thing. If there is any that you are aware of as indicated on official proclamation of the Catholic Church, kindly write it here with proper reference on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or any other official documents of the church. In so far as you have not written here any your statement is considered mere hearsay.
Don’t know what you mean. Are you saying those things I mentioned are not Catholic teaching? I was saying they are- many from your own comments. “Merely Catholic” just meant thise topics were held by many churches in addition to the Catholic church- points of unity.
Donnie, yes, they were teaching proclaimed by the Catholic Church, but because of the universality of the church (catholic not Catholic) the teachings were intended for all believers of Jesus Christ who is the anointed one from Nazareth. They were not proclaimed for Catholic believers only. So all proclamations by the Pope Ex-Cathedra, no where you could find in any generations that such were exclusive for Catholic believers only. The reason why you don;t believe the doctrine of Immaculate conception of Mery, Co-Mediatrix of Mary, the Trinity, etc., etc. is because either, firstly, you don;t study the underlying scriptures cited, deeper into the explicit and implicit meaning of the passages and your biases prevailed because of what your Pastor have said. Surely, no where you would go, if you go deep into the scriptures, you become Catholic. So study the Bible with open heart and open mind and also the Catechism of the Catholic Church and many social teachings promulgated by the early Fathers and Doctors of the Church and Papal encyclicals and the Documents of the Vatican 2, they were all biblical based and centered in Christ, it won’t harm you. I think Donnie, this is a good time for you to read again my earlier posting in this forum, remove your bias and not consider them as mere diatribe, but check it with your Bible, it will surely help you much in understanding the scriptures.
Jesus breathed upon the apostles and gave them POWER AND AUTHORITY to forgive sin, something which previously could only be done by God. Note that he didn’t give them permission alone. He gave them “power and authority.” This power, possessed by the apostles, was then handed down, over the last 2,000 years or so. Power is an actual “thing” for want of a better word. Authority pertains to the permission given by God, as well as a certain AGENCY – acting as an agent of the Lord, to do things that were previously only done by the Lord. You cannot claim that, once the apostles had the power and authority, they did not HAVE the power and authority to transmit the same power and authority, for the sake of the continuance of Christ’s church which Christ said he would never leave and which would stand forever. Therefore, it is completely illogical to deny the reality of apostolic succession.
You’ve misread the text.
Why?
Christ only established one Church…..on Peter
Jesus Christ teaching” Gods Word ” is the pillar of the church. Not traditions of man.
And the saint ” that true followers of Jesus Christ teachings”. Are the church… Nor a building.
And the last time I read the bible there were two grounds for divorce.
The Bible gives two clear grounds for divorce:
sexual immorality
Matthew 5:32; 19:9
and
abandonment by an unbeliever
1 Corinthians 7:15
And even then you was allowed to separate but to not take another. Allowing the spouse to return after the sexual sin or abandonment.
Remarriage was only allowed after death of the opposite spouse.
I thought that was the same in all Christians Bibles… lol
But some religious denominations have given blessing for people to remarry after abandonment. Which is not biblical…
But I not sure why I keep seeing divorce being reposted on a ” why do Catholics pray to Mary and the saints ” post…
Mary who gave birth to the incarnate Son who is God, makes Mary the Mother of God. In denying Mary as the mother of Jesus who is God, where in the bible denying the flow of Mary’s blood to Jesus? Surely the blood of Jesus came from Mary who is sinless, otherwise, Mary’s blood will not flow to Jesus. Sin and grace will not stick together, as oil and water.
So then what about Mary’s mother, whose blood flowed into “sinless Mary”? Then Mary’s grandmother.and great grandmother are sinless, and if so, it would only mean humanity is sinless. See what I did there? If eternal God the Son can be conceived into human Mary by Holy Spirit, can Holy Spirit not grow the same child without the flow of blood from Mary? You have added to what scripture tells us about Mary’s blood being holy.
Your logic and any other human expertise cannot limit the omnipotent power of God. So no amount of explanation for you to dispute can deny Mary’s blood flowed to Jesus. No scripture, you reputed nothing. Sorry, Sir!
But the truth is, you are not basing the RCC teachong on scripture! You are basing on tradition only. You are claiming God’s power caused Mary’s blood to flow into Jesus. That teaching is the one with NO SCRIPTURE, but only the “traditions of men”. THERE is scripture for you. The omnipotent power of God in Christ’s can heal you and me of our sins and diseases, but scripture clearly tells us that Christ was not born of the will of a man. In your definition, Mary was born of God, of holy blood from heaven. If she were conceived by the Holy Spirit, what canonized scripture do you find that in? If she were truly conceived of the Spirit, she would have to be the 4th person in God. That is the lie you cannot accept because you are so afraid of admitting the falsehood of the RCC teaching, so you appeal to God’s omnipotence. GOD can do anything, my friend, but he doesn’t contradict his word. Scripture points to One God is 3 persons in scripture, not 4.
It’s clear you’re in denial of the truth. Christ is Lord, Son of God. Mary AND Joseph were his wonderful EARTHLY surrogates. The same omnipotent power of God you appealed to conceived Christ in a woman and came to be the ONLY sinless human, and therefore only one worthy to bear the sin of humanity on the cross of Calvary. The only way, truth, and life. That is the pure truth of God’s holy word. There is salvation in no other name, is what Apostle Peter in Acts 4:12 told us so clearly. You cannot apporoach the throne of grace by any other name, the writer of Hebrews told us clearly in Heb 4:16. Not Mary, not Joseph, not Allah, Peter, Anthony or Muhammad. Only Jesus, the precious Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Except your alleged denial of truth on me which I never did but your own word alone,, everything else you said were agreeable
Donnie, good question. If any, I did not based on RCC teaching, but based on truth the Jesus, by mystery of hypostatic unon, He is truly man and truly God. I can only say that scripture alone refute your Sola Scriptura as your sole authority. (1 Tim. 3:15). …… the church of the living God is the pillar ans foundation of truth. NOT THE BIBLE. As your further proposition on 4th person and your alleged RCC falsehood, please reconcile yourself with the scripture. since RCC alone can have the claim of Apostolicity..
Testing on the Shroud shows us Jesus’ DNA. This is contrary to what some on this thread have alleged, which is that Mary was merely a ‘rent a womb’ and not His Mother. If that were true he would not have human DNA in his blood. Obviously, in order to be part man He needed a human to contribute to his physical human nature.
I agree. There is good possibility to this human DNA in the Shroud is Jesus’ but researcher do not give full assurance in view of the fact that controversy remains to present and unsettled. A researcher, Farey said he’s about 40 percent convinced the shroud is authentic and about 60 percent inclined to believe it is a forgery.
If he is God and Man, would he in human form not have human blood? Also, Jose’s response is also valid.
Timothy 2:5?
RC Atchisson, if you read the whole paragraph (1 Timothy 2:1-7) you will notice that St. Paul means there is only one who can pay the debt or “ransom” that severed the relationship between God and man. If Catholics were saying that we can receive salvation through Mary and the saints then the accusation of idolatry would be valid. But that’s not the case. We merely ask for their intercession, a word that is actually mentioned just before 1 Timothy 2:5 in 1 Timothy 2:1:
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.”
We so often take soundbites from Scripture and base our theology on them. If you read the passage as a whole you will see what is really being said. Also read Revelation 7:13-15, and Revelation 8:3-4, where St. John describes the prayers of the saints before the throne of God:
“Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, ‘Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come? I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence…
“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
Clearly the saints are still at work praying before God, so why wouldn’t I want my prayers to be mingled with theirs? They are before God’s throne while I’m still here on earth bound by cloudy perceptions of the spiritual world. Can you now see where Catholics are coming from when they pray to Mary and the saints?
Thanks for the thoughtful response. To me, even the name of a prayer dedicated to the Blessed Virgin’s honor — the Hail Mary — would appear to be, on its face, a direct call to action: to hail her. Unless I am reading them wrong, that seems to be in direct contradiction to your points. Your well-posited argument would also seem to indicate that we have a need to reach out to anyone other than Christ himself, our ultimate intercessor with God. I say that with Hebrews 4: 14-16 in mind. I appreciate your having taken the time to address my question.
You’re welcome, but you are still misunderstanding us. You’re not reading my points entirely wrong, but you are misinterpreting the word “Hail” which does not in any way mean “worship.” It means to call out to someone to attract attention: as in “the crew hailed a fishing boat,” or “she raised her hand to hail a cab.”
Even the medieval sense of the word, when people said “hail the king” did not mean they were worshiping the king but honoring him. If Catholics are being accused of honoring the mother of Jesus then we are guilty as charged. Even with that being the case though, the “Hail Mary” is a prayer of intercession that asks Mary to “pray for us sinners” and the word “Jesus” is at the very center of the prayer because he is the one we are asking Mary to place our petitions before.
Regarding intercession, as others have mentioned in this thread, asking for the intercession of Mary and the saints is no different than asking a friend to pray for you. Do you not ask friends to pray for you and do the same for them? And I am not saying there is a need to reach out to anyone other than Christ for answers to prayers. In fact, by asking Mary and the saints to intercede for me I am reaching out to Christ more than I can possibly reach out to him on my own. Instead of having just my own prayer to him, I also have the prayers of all those I asked to intercede for me who are before the throne of God.
Catholics are not idolaters and we are not misinterpreting Scripture. We are believers in Christ just as you are and while our ways of worshipping him may differ from yours, in my opinion they augment the effectiveness of our prayer life. You may value your personal relationship with Christ and feel that it is all you need in your spiritual life. For Catholics, our relationship with our Lord and Savior is both personal and communal. We go to him directly and pray to him alone just as much as you do, but we also meet him and converse with him within the communion of fellow believers here on earth and in heaven.
I do not have a need to reach out to anyone other than Christ, but I have a desire. Christ gave His mother to ME as he was dying for ME. I accept that wonderful gift and if you got to know her you would better understand the power in her intercession. Don’t you ask your friends and prayer groups to pray for you or a sick relative? You do it for prayer support because prayer works. It moves the hand of God. How much more powerful is a heavenly intercessor’s prayers! We pray through the Holy Spirit; no one seems to doubt His impact. I feel the same way about Mary because she has brought me closer to Jesus than I could have done so on my own at breakneck speed.
I guess good for you that you feel that way. I just still tend toward the fact that I trust in God’s Word, and His Word would seem to contradict certain practices and ideas. In any event, I truly hope you continue to feel as close to the Lord as you do now. Continued blessings to you.
On the cross Jesus gave his mother to JOHN to care for.
Mary was not assumes into heaven either so its really weird,no scripture in the bible claims that?
Being caught up in Mary and saints,you have Jesus the closest being to God and you would rather call on Mary and the saints?
Can you show me in the Bible where it says Sola Scriptura?
That is exactly the problem with the Protestant claim in making the Bible as their only sole authority because the bible says otherwise. John 21:25New International Version (NIV)25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
According to John 21:25, what else did Jesus say and do that would contradict everything that is already written down in the Bible?
You must be citing a perverted bible. Please tell us your bible source.
If you only accept Sola scriptura……you are asking to know what was written that wasn’t written????
The totality of “Revelation” is in The Apostolic Tradition, which is The Catholic Church, which (370 years later) gave us The New Testament, The Bible and “the very idea” of A Canon of Scripture.
The Catholic Church interprets ALL of scripture it does not contradict scripture. This means it rejects Sola Scriptura just as scripture rejects it.
(See below)
Christ didn’t write a book; or build the printing press so that Protestantism could be invented 1600 years before it happened.
Instead He founded His Davidic Kingdom of God (on Peter) See Matt 16:18 cf Isaiah 22:20-23
This Catholic Church (not the bible it gave us) is………….
“The Church of the living God, the pillar and
foundation of the truth” 1 Timothy 3:15
No Sola scriptura………….
Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 2:15
Shun those acting not according to tradition 2
Thess 3:6
No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2 Pet 1:20
Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp and
interpret 2 Pet 3:15-16
Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them
on to you 1 Cor 11:2
Jesus said and did things for 33 years and only a small segment was written down many years after his death. Tell me, after He died, how were his teachings spread? ORALLY. People were illiterate and there wasn’t a paper called the Jerusalem Daily News. ORAL tradition is what spread the faith and the apostles ordered it: go forth and spread this good news. ORALLY. So, there are things Jesus said that were not recorded. Jesus never used the term Holy Trinity. How then, do you justify using it when it is NOT in Scripture? This is why Sola Scriptura does not stand as an authority. Protestants themselves use terms NOT in Scripture.
John 3:16, Jesus tells us exactly how we are to be saved.
That passage and that passage alone tells us how to be saved.
No other book and no other person has ever made that claim.
The Bible is absolutely the only sole rule of faith and yes the Bible says scripture alone.
No, the bible is a dead letters of paper and ink!
It didn’t say that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth? But rather the church (of the living God) 1Tim.3.15.
It is a mark of Protestant traditions that they raise one verse up as the be-all verse.
(1) You say ” That passage and that passage alone tells us how to be saved.”
This is not true…..Several passages say other things
(a)Read Matthew 25:31-46
This says you go to heaven, or hell……ONLY according to your treatment of those in need
(b) Read Acts 2:37
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter
replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of
Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the
gift of the Holy Spirit.…
The Catholic Church respects ALL of scripture and interprets it authoritatively & harmoniouly with The Holy Spirit guaranteed it by Christ himself.
(2) You say ” yes the Bible says scripture alone”
WHERE please?
That is just not true.
I know where it says the opposite….
“The Church of the living God, (NOT THE BIBLE!) the pillar and
foundation of the truth” 1 Timothy 3:15
Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 2:15
Shun those acting not according to tradition
2Thess 3:6
No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2 Pet 1:20
Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp and interpret
2 Pet 3:15-16
Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you
1 Cor 11:2
And there are also many other things which Jesus
did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that
even the world itself could not contain the books that should be
written. Amen. John 21:25
I didn’t ask about being saved. Where and when did Jesus say that Sola Scriptura was your guiding principle? When did he say that beginning in about 50 years a collection of books would be written and divinely inspired- which I believe they are, by the way- and they were the ONLY books to ever follow or hear from God? Case in point: the Holy Trinity is never mentioned in the bible. Yet we as Christians know it is a Truism of the Christian faith. It is not in Scripture so how do you justify believing in it and using it? Another case in point: Jesus clearly said in at least 4 places in the Gospels that divorce is a sin and a man who divorces his wife commits adultery. Yet, most protestants who believe in Sola Scriptura do not follow that tenet spoken directly by Jesus. I don’t understand it. Martin Luther is the man who was sadly very neurotic and scrupulous and developed his own bible to satisfy his own fears. Jesus didn’t say Sola Scriptura. Luther did. Now who are you going to submit to as your God?
You didn’t answer the question.
You simply repeated the false assertion
Where does the Bible say “scripture alone”?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This verse says that God gave his son to die for us so christ would be the we worship not idols nor Saints nor Mary.
But let our Brothers and Sisters decide which to choose pray to Through Christ or to Mary and Saints.
You obviously haven’t read anything that anyone has said in an effort to explain to you that Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask her to pray for us just as we would ask any friend to pray for us. Jesus promised eternal life for those who obeyed his commandments. Mary was certainly spotless and is obviously partaking in that eternal life with God. Being very close to God, I feel confident that, if I ask her to pray for me, her prayers will certainly be heard…probably more clearly than the prayers of other friends.
Why do you doubt that Jesus listens to our prayers, let alone answer them Himself?
Who told you that Jesus doesn’t hear and answer our prayers?
I didn’t say that. You are COMPLETELY misrepresenting my comments.
Revelation 11:19 following (Ignore added chapter divisions) shows Mary assumed into heaven.
It also shows her as The Ark of The New Covenant (See my post above).
It also shows her as The New Eve. (In the conflict God prophesied in Genesis between The Woman & The Serpent/Dragon/Satan
In the book of Rev John never saw Mary sitting on a throne in heaven next to Jesus intervening for us.
Scripture is written for those with eyes to see & ears to hear, and with hearts that can be opened.
In Rev. John shows us firstly God’s Ark (Mary; who contained; The Living word; The Living Manna & The High priest….the three inanimate objects kept in The old holy Ark)
Then he sees a Woman with a crown.
What is a woman with a crown?….A queen!
Queen of what? The 12 (stars) tribes of Israel!
And John says she gives birth to the Messiah!
Have you heard of any woman who gave birth to The Messiah? There’s only one I know of.
If you knew your OT (as John did) you would know .
(1)The Messiah means Davidic King
(2)THE MOTHER of The DavIdic King (Messiah) WAS HIS QUEEN
(2)She was Gebirah. And her role was intercessor for her people. And the king honoured His mother & brought a throne & set it beside himself (1Kings 2:19). Thereafter in 1kings & 2 Kings The mother is introduced with each davidic king.
(3)Luke also knew his OT. So he shows Jesus performing his first miracle at Cana AT HIS MOTHER’S REQUEST….”though he says my hour is not yet come”!
These typological meanings are clearly intended for all with an open heart & a knowledge of the OT.
Take for instance Luke’s account of The Visitation and compare it with the ark visiting David in 2 Samuel6 ……it is clear as crystal.
Ark (Mary) goes “to the hill country of Judea”
David(John the Baptist) leaps before the ark, when David(Elizabeth) cries out “How is it (the mother) of my Lord should come to me?” They both “stay three months” and “The house was blessed”
Why do you refuse to see?
Be consistent. If you can’t see Mary as Queen of Heaven or as Gebirah then you cannot possibly believe in “The Trinity”…..for that “is a Catholic doctrine nowhere EXPLICIT in the Bible”
Equally “Sola Scriptura” is nowhere in The Bible” indeed it is many times refuted in the bible.
Scripture is written for those with eyes to see &
ears to hear, and with hearts that can be opened.
In Rev. John shows us firstly God’s Ark (Mary; who contained; The Living word; The Living Manna & The High priest….the three inanimate objects kept in The old holy Ark)
Then he sees a Woman with a crown.
What is a woman with a crown?….A queen!
Queen of what? The 12 (stars) tribes of Israel!
And John says she gives birth to the Messiah!
Have you heard of any woman who gave birth to The Messiah? There’s only one I know of.
If you knew your OT (as John did) you would know .
(1)The Messiah means The Davidic King
(2)THE MOTHER of The DavIdic King (Messiah) WAS HIS QUEEN.
So, even without the crown of israel, she would be His
Queen! How obvious does John have to be?
(3)The Davidic-Queen-Mother was “Gebirah”. And her role was
intercessor for her people. And the king honoured His mother &
brought a throne & set it beside himself (1Kings 2:19).
Thereafter in 1kings & 2 Kings The mother is introduced with each
davidic king.
(4)Luke also knew his OT. So he shows Jesus performing his first miracle at Cana AT HIS MOTHER’S REQUEST….”though he says my hour is not yet come”!
Luke
SHOWS Mary being & doing Gebirah!
That’s how scriptural truthes are often conveyed. it is not a Catechism.
These typological meanings are clearly intended for all with an open heart & a knowledge of the OT.
Take for instance Luke’s account of The Visitation and compare it with the ark visiting David in 2 Samuel6 ……it is clear as crystal.
Ark (Mary) goes “to the hill country of Judea”
David(John the Baptist) leaps before the ark, when David(Elizabeth) cries out
“How is it (the mother) of my Lord should come to me?”
They both “stay three months” and
“The house was blessed”
Why do you see some things that are not in scripture (like Sola Scrptura) and refuse to see others things plainly, intentianally portrayed therein?
Be consistent.
If you can’t see Mary as Queen of Heaven, God’s Ark, or as Gebirah, then you cannot possibly believe in “The Trinity”…..for The Trinity “is one of those Catholic doctrines nowhere EXPLICIT in the Bible”
Equally “Sola Scriptura” is nowhere in The Bible” indeed it is many times refuted in the bible.
Mary herself prayed to God and called God her Savior: “Oh, how my soul praises the Lord. How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!
Jesus said “You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.” (Luke 4:8).
MARY’S SONG OF PRAISE
Luke 1:46 Then Mary said, “My soul praises the greatness of the Lord!
47 My spirit exults in God, my Savior,
There is a confusion caused by the different meanings ascribe to “Prayer” & “worship”
“To pray” originally meant “ask earnestly, beg, entreat,”
(See https://www.etymonline.com/word/Pray)
That’s exactly what Catholics do to Mary …..as in The Hail Mary ……”Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, & at the hour of our death, Amen”
We are asking her, to ask God her Father, The Holy Spirit (Her Spouse) & her Son (God-the Son-Jesus Christ) to plead for us as she did for the people at Cana.
This was the role of Gibirah….Mother of The Davidic King! (Which the Bible clearly says Jesus is)
Unfortunately, because Protestants ONLY “pray” to God they confuse this with “worship”.
Protestants ask other Christians to pray for them; but they stop asking them when they die and are closer to God.
To Catholics this seems illogical. We believe the Church, (the Body of Christ) exists both sides of the grave and this is depicted in Revelations.
Catholics Venerate & honour Mary as God’s Masterpiece. The precise term is “hyperdulia”. And we can have a relationship with her as with christ.
If you praise an artist’s masterpiece, do they get angry or jealous?
“Worship” is a word we now reserve for adoration, praise and prayer to God alone.
Although , to confuse things even this has changed…………..
Old English “worship” meant…… “condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown,”
https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship
So a Medaeval person might “worship Mary” but they didn’t mean what we mean by it today.
Except that I might say I worship my wife!
Jesus also “prayed to God-The-Father” …..By your logic He was worshipping Himself
Jesus also prayed to God the Father
So your point is???
“To Pray”…..originally meant “ask earnestly, beg, entreat,”
(See https://www.etymonline.com/word/Pray)
American Protestants now restrict the word to addressing God. I can’t help that.
We “ask” Mary to “ask” God.
As in The Hail Mary…..”….Holy Mary, Mother of God PRAY FOR US sinners, now, and at the hour of our death, Amen”.
Have you never asked someone, close to someone else in authority, to ask or plead for you?
I’ll bet you have.
Anyway it’s what Mary did at Cana.
And The Davidic King(Jesus) always had a Queen. And it was His MOTHER.
And she had a job…..”Gebirah” ….to intercede for the people.
And The King never refused her.
God gives us this help. Maybe you don’t want it?
Jesus has made us family;
Brothers of Christ,
Sons of The Father, by adoption
and he gave us his mum to be our mum too!
“Behold (ie HERE IS!) thy Mother” (His last act on the cross in John…..notice he calls Mary “Woman” there….Eve’s name before the Fall. And the Old Eve was “the mother of all the living”., as is Mary (New Eve) “Mother of all the redeemed”.
Mother (literally & cosmically) of “The Body of Christ”
Maybe you ONLY want a “relationship with Jesus” that’s the fashionable Theobabble that rejects the COMMUNITY of God’s family.
If you’re His friend, He wants you to meet his mum. That’s what family & friends do.
TO SUSAN D HARRIS, THIS WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION IF MARY (AS DEAD) CAN HEAR US, ON QUESTION OF NECROMANCY AND ETC. PLEASE BEAR WITH ME AND KINDLY UNDERSTAND BELOW. Thanks again to Catholic Answers. to whom all credits be due, helping us understand our faith through their research. The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the
earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the
Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in
Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are
aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some
might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were
not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this
argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear
our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when
they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is
clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively
intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they
offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical
things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in
heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they
are interceding.
One Mediator
Another
charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their
intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ,
which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
But
asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s
mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is
a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God
because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only
bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is
not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us.
Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he
is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses
was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The
intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven
are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship
because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul
says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all
men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a
quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is
good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly,
then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is
something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on
Christ’s role as mediator.
“No Contact with the dead”
Sometimes
Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to
pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in
passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he
at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear
with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt.
17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up
spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son
or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a
soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a
wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about
to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you,
the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will
raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your
brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15). TO BE CONTINUED….
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE:
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for
purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets
instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of
common sense can discern the vast qualitative
difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you
and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to
Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference
between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an
occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a
humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some
objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted
notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
“How,
then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of
Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different
languages, all at the same time?
“Let any priest or
layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see
how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against
prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they
too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one
place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
“How,
then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of
petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many
different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but
only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like
God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?” (Roman
Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like
being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A
mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the
restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But
the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the
time/space limitations of this life.
This does not
imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is,
for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with
others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions
arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does
anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the
King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of
tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in
Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The
problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even
childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough
intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real
implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book
Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate
appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of
what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer
to the saints follows.
“Directly to Jesus”
Some
may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their
intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is
permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking
why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. “Why not pray
directly to Jesus?” they ask.
The answer is: “Of
course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is
not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately,
the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who
makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to
pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can
go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven
to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian
on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is
simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul
strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things,
and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul
directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col.
4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was
praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus
himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked
us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of
asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it
cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go
directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there
were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and
devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what
is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for
one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28,
17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that
those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this
life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on
earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers
of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has
great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with
ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three
years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again
and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas.
5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they
have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than
anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having
others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be
despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with
every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the
Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass,
the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not
the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our
fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
Wait a minute. Do I need to take back my recommendation that you write a book? Have you copied this from another source without permission? Do you realize this is theft of intellectual property? It appears you’ve violated copyright law by copying the words of another writer and putting them here as if they are your own. Very wrong. Theft is theft, regardless of motive. I hope I am wrong.
Silver, here is said at the very start: “Thanks again to Catholic Answers. to whom all credits be due, helping us understand our faith through their research.
Also in my other posting at the beginning, I said, “to explain concerning Idolatry and Worship. (I would be borrowing from Catholic Apologetic organization, Catholic Answers, Inc, for whom all credits be due)”
Since they were research, I do not take credits for my own, but explicitly given to the source, Catholic Answers, Inc.
I’m quite offended with the allegation of theft.
If you copy verbatim from someone else’s writing, it IS theft. Read up on copyright law. You’re definitely doing something illegal. You are required to get express written permission from the author before you can publish their work in any form, in any venue whatsoever. It is theft of intellectual property if you do not.
Maybe you are right if you don’t give expressly full credit to the author as these are public documents put in the media.
You seem to be now self-righteous accuser, failing to read posting carefully.
Emily, Solomon did not honor Bathsheba’s request. The man Bathsheba was interceding for was the same man that Solomon had put to death. Stop kidding the catholics and start telling them the truth.
Praying to Mary is idolatry.
Actually it’s necromancy and is forbidden in the Bible. I really love many aspects of the Catholic faith, but Mary was NOT a supernatural being. She was mortal. She is dead. Talking to her is WRONG. It’s like waiting for Houdini’s message to come through.
What do you mean she is dead? so she is not in Heaven? are people in Heaven dead?
To the thief on the cross, Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” If you recall Jesus’ parable on Lazarus the beggar, he was in “Abraham’s bosom”. When the rich man asked Abraham to let Lazarus go back and warn his family about the place of suffering, there was no acceptance given. There was no intercession offered. This concept of saints who have died being intercessors is not seen anywhere in accepted canon.
Also, there is tge concept that once we die we rest from our labor (see Heb. 4:3, Heb 4:11, Matthew 25:23) . Our intercession, our struggles of life are over and we await the resurrection of the body spoken of in various passages in the New Testament when Jesus returns. We as Christians await that great hope of the coming of Christ, along with all saints (those having received Christ’s atonement).
Problem being that Hades(sheol) encompasses Paradise and Hell.
Hades is under the Earth. Heaven is above us not under us. Those in Heaven are alive not dead. As the article explains the presence of saints is evident in Revelation. Furthermore Jesus speaks with Moses and Elijah while still doing ministry on Earth, was that necromancy to call upon them? Hebrews 12: 1 says we are surounded by a great could of witnesses, Hebrews 12: 22-24 speaks of us being drawn to the saints like we are drawn to God and Jesus, which means we can interact with them. It puts emphasis on this newness by pointing out that we are under a new covenant. Meaning that it is richer. The communion of saints is affirmed by respected early Church fathers like Origen and Clement of Alexandira.
Or you suppose the above. That is a very natural view of realms that are spiritual and scripture gives us no clear indication one way or another. Since you went there, think of the earth hanging in space… which way is up, and which is down?
Show me in the King James Bible where God says we should pray to Mary, it doesn’t…Mary was a sinner just like you and me….we are to worship God and God alone, he makes that very clear! We are also suppose to confess our sins to God not to a priest, a priest cannot forgive you of your sins only God can. If someone offered me a million dollars to convert back to catholicism I would turn them down.
> Show me in the King James Bible where God says we should pray to Mary, it doesn’t…
Show me in the King James Bible where God says we should
check in the King James Bible whether we should pray to Mary, it doesn’t… 🙂
I personally prefer the original Hebrew and (Koinate) Greek rather than the English translation 🙂
Since Jesus is “Son of David”, perhaps we can look into the Old Testament for an interaction of “Son of David” (Solomon) and “Bathsheba the mother of Solomon” in
1 Kings 2: 13-21
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+1+Kings+2%3A+13-21&version=KJV
(that request was denied, but, it show that the mother of the King can
“speak for thee unto the king”: Adonijah to Bathsheba to Solomon)
Perhaps we can look into in the New Testament for an interaction of Jesus “Son of David” and Mary “the mother of my Lord” (Luke 1:43) in
John 2:1-11
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+2%3A1-11&version=KJV
(that request was granted, it showed that the mother of the King can “speak for thee unto the king”: “wedding-organizer” to Mary to Jesus)
> we are to worship God and God alone, he makes that very clear!
Agreed.
Though, as Christians imitate Christ, some Christians also imitate Christ in His honoring of His mother
Exodus 20:12:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus+20%3A12&version=KJV
> a priest cannot forgive you of your sins only God can.
It seems Jesus has given His apostles power to “remit” sins in John 20:23:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20%3A23&version=KJV
> If someone offered me a million dollars to convert back to catholicism I would turn them down.
What if Jesus offered His Body and Blood and eternal Life? 🙂
(and the fullness of Truth, et cetera)
John 6:53-58
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6%3A53-58&version=KJV
I took His offer 🙂
“Show me in The King James Bible”………
But where does it say “in the bible” even what books should be in The Bible?
(This was only discerned by Catholic Bishops in Councils…..1300 years before Luther took out 7 books, on his personal sayso!)
Show me where it says Sola Scriptura? (It doesn’t)
So “Show me in the Bible” cannot possibly be true.
But, be that as it may, I CAN show you Mary in Heaven in The Bible (Rev 11:19 following ……N.B. There are no chapter divisions in the original)
I Can show you Mary interceding with Jesus for people in need (Read Luke’s Gospel; Cana marriage. Jesus first miracle done at her request.)
Look up Gebirah (The Davidic King’s Queen, was his MOTHER…. who was intercessor never refused).
I can show you the Petrine ministry (Matt 16:18 Compare Is 22:20-23) Davidic King’s had a STEWARD to rule in their stead, who carried The Keys as authority
I can show you The Real Presence (Read John 6 and let it speak for itself)
I can show you where the bible denies Sola Scriptura in many places.
And I can show yoy where The Bible says “The CHURCH is the pillar & ground of truth” (Not the bible! “The Church”……The Bible wasn’t compiled by The Catholic Church for another 350 years!)
Protestants deny the plain meaning of scripture when it looks “Catholic”
They then say; “show me exactly where in the Bible” for this, that & the other Catholic doctrine ……even though Catholics can prove that.
And although “All scripture is true” ……”Not all truth is in scripture”
Be consistent.
If you want EXPLICIT scripture bible-refs. to believe something, you must…..
REJECT Sola Scriptura;
REJECT faith alone:
REJECT Eternal security:
REJECT The Rapture:
REJECT Me-&-my-Bible
Believe in what is clearly EXPLICIT in scripture
BELIEVE Christ founded One Church
BELIEVE He said it would never be overwhelmed and fail
BELIEVE He said he would always be with it
BELIEVE He reinstituted the office of King’s Steward (Papacy)
BELIEVE In The Real Presence
BELIEVE He gave power to forgive sins (or retain them) to His Apostles.
BELIEVE They chose successors
In fact, you don’t believe “The Bible”. You believe what somebody tells you it means.
You have rejected His Church, to listen to the opinions of men as to what it means
You wrote quite a few words but didn’t answer the question. There is only one God and only God can hear and answer prayers.
Did you read my words?
(1)Do you ask people to pray for you?
If so, does God get angry that you’re taking attention from Him.
Or does he delight in you “loving one another” thus?
If you ask friends to pray for you now…..why would you stop asking them when they are with God?
(2)Are you American & Protestant? They have changed the meaning of the word “Prayer” meaning exclusively “talking to God”.
To pray also means just “to ask”.
I pray you will understand.
(3)Your question was “Show me in the bible….”
I challenged your implicit (& incorrect) presupposition (Sola Scriptura)……
So I asked you where in the bible it says everything is in the bible ……Nowhere!
In fact it says just the opposite!
“Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter”
2 Thess 2:15
“Shun those acting not according to tradition” 2
Thess 3:6
“No prophecy is a matter of private” interpretation
2 Pet 1:20
“Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you” 1 Cor 11:2
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be
written. Amen.” John 21:25
Sola scriptura is NOT in the bible! In fact it is
contradicted by the bible repeatedly, and finally the bible says …..”The Church” (not the bible) is the source of truth!
“The Church of the living God, the pillar and
foundation of the truth” 1 Timothy 3:15
(4)The Bible contains no table of contains within itself. So it cannot even say what it is!
To decide what New Testament era writings were to be included (and a great many were left out) required a HIGHER authority……i.e. “The Catholic Church” established by Christ and given all authority by him.
(5)I also tried to expose the fact that protestants (without first proving sola scriptura) demand “Show me in the bible” for Catholic Doctrines.
And when you show them (eg John 6 for The Real Presence) they perform all sorts of exegetical somersaults to avoid the plain meaning.
They also have made up their own traditions that are NOT in the bible (eg Sola Scriptura) but they don’t say “show me in the bible”…..for them!
If you pray to Mary you must think she is a God!
I’m very clear what Mary is.
Your statement is only true if you rigidly insist “prayer” is always and everwhere something you only do towards God.
But “to pray to” has other meanings for all historic Christians.
Did you read my reply at all please?
Read (2) & (1) in my reply
When we “pray” to any saints we are
simply “continuing to talk to our brothers & sisters in christ who are now with God in Heaven”
The Church, (the Body of Christ) exists both sides of physical death. Our relationships in Christ are unaffected by death.
So, if you can “ask” people to pray for you now,
you can “ask” them, when they are with God (It’s totally illogical not to!). But then you might say I “prayed” to St Joseph, or Mary, etc. for their help.
It’s all about LOVE.
“Love One Another”……does not stop at the grave! Why would it?
Do you imagine Heaven is just “Me-&-Jesus”?
It’s a funny idea Protestants have of God…..that
he gets really upset if we intercede for one another with Him.
If you have children, do you get angry if they plead with you for each other?
For Jesus first miracle at Cana…..Luke tells how
the people in difficulty (Wedding hosts without wine)….went to Mary (Or she saw their need) and she interceded with her son.
If Luke was a Protestant he would have had them go “straight to Jesus”
To understand Jesus’ feigned reluctance & demurral look up Gebirah (and use Catholic sources….. unless you are just
seeking to shore up your misinformation)
Here….. read this if you genuinely want to understand
http://www.agapebiblestudy….
I’ve really enjoyed reading this exchange! I’m learning a lot.
To help me better understand, I would like to know what Catholics believe about saints (and Mary, peace be upon her). If we were to accept that they are close to God and thus their prayers are more likely to be answered by God, what evidence do we have to believe that (A) they have the authority to intercede on our behalf and (B) they can hear our prayers after they have died?
Would we not be assuming too much about their abilities?
Catholics believe God IS PERFECT LOVE.
That is why there are “3-Persons-in-One-God”.
(I know this is new to you, but bear with me please)
Perfect-Love….is….. “Separate-Persons-in-co-attraction-being-Perfectly-One”
LOVE
One person=Narcissism
Two Persons=Reciprocity
Three Persons=COMMUNITY
I realise God is ultimately incomprehensible by our reason, but some truthes have been revealed about him that point our meditation of him in the right direction.
OK! So………….
GOD-IS-PERFECT-COMMUNAL-LOVE.
That’s why throughout the Old Testament He always saves “A People” And he forms Covenants with His People.
So Jesus says… “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” (And he lays down his life for us) (John 13:34).
So God’s delight is his children “loving one another” (becoming God’s-essence…..Perfect-Communal-Love)
The Communion of The Saints is all about this Communal-Love that is God’s very nature.
The grave does not separate us
Catholics believe:
God is One…..But
GOD IS PERFECT LOVE.
That is why there are
“3-Persons-in-One-God”.
(I know this is new to you, but bear with me please)
Perfect-Love….is…..
“Separate-Persons-in-co-attraction-being-Perfectly-One”
LOVE Requires 3 Persons.
One person=Narcissism
Two Persons=Reciprocity
Three Persons=COMMUNITY
I realise God is ultimately incomprehensible by our reason, but some truthes have been
revealed about him that point our meditation of him in the right direction.
OK! So………….
GOD-IS-ONE-IN-PERFECT-COMMUNAL-LOVE.
That’s why throughout the Old Testament He always saves “A People” And he forms
Covenants with His People.
So Jesus says… “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.” (And he lays down his life for us) (John 13:34).
So God’s delight is his children “loving one another” (becoming God’s-essence…..Perfect-Communal-Love)
The Communion of The Saints is all about this Communal-Love that is God’s very nature.
The grave does not separate us from this Love.
So Catholics emphasise that Heaven is a community….and that begins now. I think it’s fair
to say Protestants can get locked into an individualistic “me-&-Jesus” personal-salvation, that is unbiblical.
Orthodox believe as Catholics do.
Revelations 8:3-4
depicts these prayers being offered before God.
“3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was
given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the
incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.”
Hebrews 12:1-4 shows
their interest in us.
“Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith …”
So to answer your questions……
(A)”Their Authority” is their immersion in the Perfect Communal Love uniting them perfectly to God in Heaven.
More about “Love” than “Power”
NB For Catholics
everyone in Heaven is a Saint….but we usually mean it to refer to “canonised saints” where we have proof, by verified miracles, that a Saint has interceded for us.
(B)These miracles are proof of hearing as are the scripture passages cited.
Getting back to The attributes of God which I see you list elsewhere. The Christian (Catholic) agrees with most of them ….but the fundamental dimension (Of God being LOVE) is missing for us.
Also I would ask “Why did this God make us”? “Because He wants us to worship him” (for its own sake) would make God petty?
If we posit The Catholic God (Communal Love) His purpose is for free beings that can choose to love him in return, & share his life with him in Love.
Love Grows
Simply nothing is biblical here.
All man made doctrines and craps. As it’s said by apostle John in the book of revelation 22:18 the whoever dare to add or subtract any prophetic word in the Biblebible, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
If my Christian friend is in Moscow and I’m in cape Town and I don’t have his email or phone number, can I just pray to him?
Mary is the Mother of our Lord, Jesus, Spouse of the Holy Spirit and daughter of the Father (of us all) … In other words, she is the
I don’t get this. When you ask a friend to pray for you, he/she asks God through Jesus. Now this is my question: do you, when you pray, actually ask Mary, or dead saints, to deliver you from say a life threatening heart attack, or to stop you going bankrupt ? In other words, are you equating Mary and the Saints with Jesus. He was the only person ever, totally without sin. No one, including Mary and the saints, is/were not. Mary is second only to Jesus, followed by the saints, but the fact remains that they are NOT the same as Jesus. Yes, He was the son of God, i.e. God made flesh. But Mary, being the mother of Jesus, is NOT God’s wife. She is NOT divine in the way Jesus is. You may as well pray to Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas).
Do you ever ask your friends for their prayer support? My husband was taken by ambulance to the ER without a pulse 2 months ago. While following the ambulance I was texting my closest friends to ask them to intercede for my husband- that is…..to join me in prayer to pray for the Lord to save him. They were not just praying, but asking others to also pray. One woke up her husband to pray with her; another texted her sister. I also asked Mary, to beg before the throne on our behalf to save him and to restore him to health. Our prayers were answered. Mary is a great intercessor. No, i don’t think she is God. She gave birth to Him, taught Him his faith, raised Him through love and still- through love will ask Him to hear our prayers and answer them. Ever ask a friend who has standing with an important person to put in a good word for you, maybe as a job applicant? Ever ask someone for a reference? Mary knows Jesus better than we do and she is delighted to bring us and our needs to Him.
Your explanations and Bible references are really excellent. The problem is that the people for whom you have gone to such pains are not reading and/or not comprehending the meaning of the English language. Many people leave school these days with very poor understanding of our language, which is one of the most difficult in the world! It is an elegant language, with depth and subtlety, but many people are stunted by lack of knowledge and a culture devoted to twitter. They lack the intellectual rigor necessary to even pay attention for longer than a sentence or two. Notice that the responses you have received from these people are very short, and they do not address any of the points that you’ve brought up.
Thank you for your kindness. It helps when I am weary of the constant assault based on ignorance.
I suppose they “got saved” last week, and the only thing to do with that, is learn about 20 verses & go & “save” somebody else.
They come like baby, self-appointed prophets, not to read, nor to learn, but to “proclaim”, with an inappropriate quote, & then run for cover lest their naked ignorance be exposed.
It appears that many treat their beliefs as a contest. It is not necessary or Christlike to make fun of or insult those who do not share your interpretations of what the teachings of the Bible and or church. This does the opposite of spreading the gospel.
What do “the pillar and foundation of the truth” in Timothy 3:15 refer to, to the church or to God?
“The Church of God”…….that’s what it says.
Don’t read scripture through the grid of your tradition.
……unless it’s the original, Apostolic & Catholic Tradition.
Exegetical gymnastics to fit your tradition mean you put (a Protestant) tradition before scripture!
“Show me (this tradition) in the Bible”?
“Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you” (1 Cor 11:2)
“Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter” (2 Thess 2:15)
“Shun those acting not according to tradition” (2 Thess 3:6)
“No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation” (2 Pet 1:20) the tradition decides.
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” (John 21:25) ie Oral Tradition
“In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35) Paul clearly refers to the oral tradition…..since these words of Jesus are not in The Gospels
And appointing elders ……”and he must have a firm grasp of the unchanging message of the tradition, so that he can be counted on for both expounding the sound doctrine and refuting those who argue against it.” (Titus 1:8-9)
So (according to the Bible) IT IS ENOUGH FOR ME TO SHOW YOU A CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN THE TRADITION OF THE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST!
Okay, I do believe your answer to my question, but in your last sentence you say it is enough for you to show me a christian belief in the tradition of the church founded by Christ. I can’t remember a passage from the Bible in which Christ founds a church in which people pray to His mother and saints.
Blessings to you She!
I presume you are starting from a “Protestant situation”
culture/history/assumptions? Your question presupposes Sola
Scriptura. Are you concious of this assumption in it?
The first problem is that “Bible alone” is also nowherein the Bible
(quite the reverse in fact) so it is self-refuting. So why is your
question thus phrased?
There are also no passages in the Bible for Sunday-School, Sinner’s Prayer, A personal relationship with Jesus. (These are all great by the way)
And the point about “The tradition” is that it is a “living authority”.
(A Bible without this is useless ….as The Eunuch says to Phillip in
Acts 8:26-40).
So The Church is “LED into all truth” as Jesus told his Apostles.
So there were Councils. The first was Jerusalem in Acts 15….where The Apostles IGNORE SCRIPTURE to teach NEW TEACHINGS WITH AUTHORITY.
So “The Trinity”, “Hypostatic Union” etc. come from later Councils.
Anyhoo!
The Jews were awaiting the Messiah who would “re-establish the
Davidic Kingdom, that would last forever & encompass The
Nations”. They were not expecting “A New Book”……and Jesus never mentions one.
So instead Jesus talks about “The Kingdom” incessantly.
And in Matt 16:18-19 Jesus calls This Kingdom-of-Heaven “my
Church”. He tells Peter it will never fail & He gives Peter “The Keys” of
This Kingdom-of-Heaven. The sign of the King’s total authority.
He selects 12 Apostles as the princes for the 12 tribes and sets one up
as The Davidic Steward.
So, instead of writing a book, Jesus founded a living Church/Kingdom/Tradition … “that would never fail” (Matt 16:18); that he would be with until the end of time (Matt 28:20); & “lead into all Truth”. (John 16:13).
And if you want to hear this “Word-of-God” he said “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Protestant Christians tend to forget Jesus was totally Jewish, & the Jewish Messiah. His Apostles were all Jewish, and, although the nations will flock to His Kingdom-of-Heaven, it remains of Jewish character.
The Apostles carried on with Jewish habits, customs & assumptions
until circumstances required adaptions. Amongst these assumptions is the role of “oral tradition”. The Jews had their Tanakh (Old Testament) but it required interpretation by Rabbis, Scribes & Pharisees. These oral expoundings were called The Talmud. They were written down later, in the second century AD & called The Mishnah & more added centuries later again called the Gemara.
This Jewish “oral system” just carried on in Catholic (& Orthodox) Christianity.
It recognises that using scriptures as a self-expanatory, or all sufficient, book, is impossible.
“But Jesus hated the Scribes etc.” you say?
No, Jesus told the people that their religious leaders, despite all their sins, had DIVINE guidance. That’s why, just before he condemned the Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees in Matthew 23, he gave an unqualified approval to their teachings!
“The scribes and Pharisees have taken their seat on the Chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever that they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but do not practice” (Matthew 23:2,3)
The Jews were to obey their corrupt, but legitimate, leaders because God saw to it that they taught the truth even when failing morally.
This became the notion of the Catholic teaching authority, that the Seat of Moses, passed down in succession for 1500 years until the time of Christ, and the High Priesthood of Caiaphas, continued in the Church where it became the Seat of Peter.
REMEMBER CATHOLICISM IS POST-MESSIANIC JUDAISM. It is the people-of-God who accepted the Messiah.
So “Christianity (Post Messianic Judaism) is not a simple “Book-Religion”.
Jesus DISCIPLED Apostles, & sent them to disciple others saying He
would be “with you until the end of time” (thus with their successors)
So what do the Earliest Christians do… “And theydevoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”. (Acts 2:42) ” the breaking of bread and the prayers” is the Eucharist (Mass).
(Check with The Didache)
” the apostles’ teaching” (Not Scriptures!)
Remember these Christians had no “Bible”. They could only read The Tanakh at The Synagogue.
AND JUST HOW WAS THIS “ORAL GOSPEL” PRESERVED?
Paul says…. (2 Tim 2:2)
“You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well.”
(Nothing there about writing books, printing them up, scripture studies etc.!)
ie
You take what I taught you…. (1 generation)
Teach this to others…. ………..(2 generations)
Who will teach others………… (3 generations)
Just as Jesus “discipled” His Apostles & gave them “all authority” so they discipled others to succeed them.
This is catholic/orthodox apostolic succession
This carried on seamlessly into the Early Church.
Some of the earliest Church (Apostolic) Fathers were discipled by the
Apostles. Bishops like St Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna &
Clement of Rome. They learnt the faith from The Apostles lips; and
they all left writings.
Consider St Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch. He was ordained by St Peter & taught by St John. He had to walk to Rome, with 5 guards, for martyrdom by lions circa 107 AD (70 years after
Christ’s Passion).
En route he wrote 7 Epistles.
Do you think he knew the “Apostolic Faith” (which Peter & John
taught him, & for which he died) better than Luther in Germany
1500 years later (who claimed to have “rediscovered the real
Gospel”)
So read chapters 7, 8, & 9 here of his Smyrnean Epistle
http://www.newadvent.org/fa…
Then ask yourself “Where in the bible does it say everything you need now, or ever, is here in the bible”?
OK
Praying to Mary (Asking for her help)???
Well we know Christian were doing this by 250ish AD
Please Google “Sub Tuum Paesidium”
It was widespread & not controversial either…which anything dodgy certainly was!
So it is an extremely ancient tradition.
So, if you accept that Jesus is The Messiah & that The Messiah is GOD’S LAST WORD TO MAN… prophesied to “conquer all nations” how can you believe His sacred, Messiah-founded Church went belly-up within a 100 years or so? And then that the Holy Ghost deserted us
for 1500 years or up to 1900 years depending which denomination you
follow. And that the Church that required God himself, in Jesus, to
found, had to be re-founded by Luther, Calvin, Melancthon, Zwingli.
Bucer, Fox. Smyth etc etc etc etc. It is almost blasphemous!
And…bye-the-bye…. “His Mother” is YOUR Mother.
Is Jesus your Brother?
If He is, who is your mum?
And in John John 19:25-29 Jesus last act is to say to “The Beloved Disciple” (INSERT YOUR OWN NAME) “Here is your Mother” …..not “Look after her” or “Be LIKE a Son to her”.
It is a Cosmic fact. That’s why Jesus calls her
“Woman” the Second-Eve…..MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING
Blessings to you She!
I presume you are starting from a “Protestant situation” culture/history/assumptions? Your question presupposes Sola Scriptura. Are you concious of this assumption in it?
So you treat the “Tradition” as if it was a
part-of-scripture, when it is the reverse. The Bible came from the Tradition.
When Paul wrote to the Corinthians or Galatians
it was because the Church was ALREADY THERE……. & having problems. The New Testament came out of the living pre-existent
Church.
Catholicism/Orthodoxy holds that Jesus left a “kingdom” with Teacher-Shepherds & Traditions (the beliefs and teachings of a community). Later some of this was written down.
And, much later still, (367AD to 419 AD), some
of these writings were elevated as “inspired”.
There are also no passages in the Bible for
Sunday-School, Sinner’s Prayer, A personal relationship with Jesus. (These are all great by the way)
And the point about “The
tradition” is that it is a “LIVING authority”.
(A Bible without this is useless ….as The Eunuch says to Phillip in Acts 8:26-40).
So The Church is “LED into all truth” as
Jesus told his Apostles.
So there were Councils. The first was
Jerusalem in Acts 15….where The Apostles IGNORED SCRIPTURE to teach NEW TEACHINGS WITH AUTHORITY.
So “The Trinity”, “Hypostatic Union” etc. come from later Councils.
Anyhoo!
The Jews were awaiting the Messiah who would “re-establish the Davidic Kingdom, that would last
forever & encompass The Nations”. They were not expecting
“A New Book”……and Jesus never mentions one.
So Jesus talks about “The Kingdom” incessantly.
And in Matt 16:18-19 Jesus calls This Kingdom-of-Heaven “my Church”.
He tells Peter it will never fail & He gives Peter “The Keys” of This Kingdom-of-Heaven. The sign of the King’s total authority.
He selects 12 Apostles as the princes for the 12 tribes and sets one up as The Davidic Steward.
So, instead of writing a book, Jesus founded a living Church/Kingdom/Tradition … “that
would never fail” (Matt 16:18); that he would be with until the end of time (Matt 28:20); & “lead into all Truth” (John 16:13).
And if you want to hear this “Word-of-God”
he said “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Protestant Christians tend to forget Jesus was
totally Jewish, & the Jewish Messiah. His Apostles were all Jewish, and, although the nations will flock to His Kingdom-of-Heaven, it remains of Jewish character.
The Apostles carried on with Jewish habits, customs & assumptions until
circumstances required adaptions. Amongst these assumptions is the role of “oral tradition”. The Jews had their Tanakh (Old Testament) but it required interpretation by Rabbis, Scribes &
Pharisees. These oral expoundings were called The Talmud. They were written down later, in the second century AD & called The Mishnah
& more added centuries later again called the Gemara.
This Jewish “oral system” just carried on in Catholic (& Orthodox) Christianity.
It recognises that using scriptures as a
self-expanatory, or all-sufficient, book, is impossible.
“But Jesus hated the Scribes etc.” you might say?
No, Jesus told the people that their religious leaders, despite all their sins, had DIVINE guidance. That’s why, just before he condemned the Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees in Matthew 23, he gave an unqualified approval to their teachings!
“The scribes and Pharisees have taken their seat on the Chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever that they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but do not practice” (Matthew 23:2,3)
The Jews were to obey their corrupt, but legitimate, leaders because God saw to it that they taught the truth even when failing morally.
This became the notion of the Catholic teaching
authority, that the Seat of Moses, passed down in succession for 1500 years until the time of Christ, and the High Priesthood of Caiaphas, continued in the Church where it became the Seat of Peter.
REMEMBER CATHOLICISM IS POST-MESSIANIC JUDAISM. It is the people-of-God who accepted the Messiah.
So “Christianity
(Post Messianic Judaism) is not a simple “Book-Religion”.
Jesus DISCIPLED Apostles & sent them to disciple others saying He would be “with you until the end of time” (thus with their successors)
So what do the Earliest Christians do… “And
they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”. (Acts
2:42) ” the breaking of bread and the prayers” is the Eucharist (Mass). (Check with The Didache)
” the apostles’ teaching” (Not Scriptures!)
Remember these Christians had no “Bible”.
They could only read The Tanakh at The Synagogue.
AND JUST HOW WAS THIS “ORAL GOSPEL”
PRESERVED?
Paul says…. (2 Tim 2:2)
“You therefore, my child, be strong in the
grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard me
say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be
qualified to teach others as well.”
(Nothing there about
writing books, printing them up, scripture studies etc.!)
ie
You take what I taught you…. (1
generation)
Teach this to others…. ………..(2 generations)
Who will teach others………… (3 generations)
Just as Jesus “discipled” His Apostles &
gave them “all authority” so they discipled others to
succeed them.
This is catholic/orthodox apostolic succession
This carried on seamlessly into the Early Church.
Some of the earliest Church (Apostolic) Fathers were discipled by the
Apostles. Bishops like St Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna &
Clement of Rome. They learnt the faith from The Apostles lips; and
they all left writings.
Consider St Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch. He was
ordained by St Peter & taught by St John. He had to walk to Rome, with 5 guards, for martyrdom by lions circa 107 AD (70 years after Christ’s Passion).
En route he wrote 7 Epistles.
Do you think he knew the “Apostolic Faith” (which Peter & John taught him, & for which he died) better than Luther in Germany 1500 years later (who claimed to have “rediscovered the real
Gospel”)
So read chapters 7, 8, & 9 here
http://www.newadvent.org/fa…
Praying to Mary (Asking for her help)???
Well
we know Christian were doing this by 250 ‘ish AD
Please Google “Sub Tuum Paesidium”
It was widespread & not controversial
either…which anything dodgy certainly was!
So it is an extremely ancient tradition.
So, if you accept that Jesus is The Messiah & that The Messiah is GOD’S LAST WORD TO MAN… prophesied to “conquer all nations” how
can you believe His sacred, Messiah-founded Church went belly-up within a 100 years or so? And then that the Holy Ghost deserted us
for 1500 years or up to 1900 years depending which denomination you follow. And that the Church that required God himself, in Jesus, to
found, had to be re-founded by Luther, Calvin, Melancthon, Zwingli. Bucer, Fox. Smyth etc etc etc etc. The Messiah’s Church cannot be re-founded by a mere mortal!
And…bye-the-bye…. “His Mother” is YOUR Mother.
Is Jesus your Brother?
If He is, who is your mum?
And in John John 19:25-29 Jesus last act is to say to “The Beloved Disciple” (INSERT YOUR OWN NAME) “Here is your Mother” …..not “Look after her” or “Be LIKE a Son to her”.
It is a Cosmic fact. That’s why Jesus calls her
“Woman” the Second-Eve…..MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING
Perhaps you would like what I’ve just been watching.
A former Presbyterian Minister, A former Baptist Minister & an ex Baptist History Scholar discussing
core issues…. https://chnetwork.org/journey-home/deep-in-history-roundtable-ken-hensley-and-dr-david-anders
Greetings She Grabs the Curtain
I have replied to your post about 5 times but it keeps disappearing. I don’t know why.
I will try posting it in parts. I have emailed Ascension but have no explanation yet.
——–
PART 1
I presume you are starting from a “Protestant situation” culture/history/assumptions? Your question still presupposes Sola Scriptura. Are you concious of this assumption in it?
The first problem is that “Bible alone” is also nowhere in the Bible, so it is self-refuting. So why is your question thus phrased? It’s another “Show me in the Bible….” demand.
Are you treating the “Tradition” as if
it would be a part-of-scripture, when it is the reverse. The Bible came from the Tradition.
When Paul wrote to the Corinthians or Galatians
it was because the Church was ALREADY THERE……. & having problems. The New Testament came out of the living pre-existent
Church.
Catholicism/Orthodoxy holds
that Jesus left a “kingdom” with Teacher-Shepherds & Traditions (the beliefs and teachings of a community as taught by the Apostoles & successors). Later some
of this was written down. And much later still (367AD to 419 AD), some of these writings
were elevated as “inspired”.Some, such as The Didache or 1 Clement wasn’t
There are also no passages in the Bible for
traditions like Sunday-School, Sinner’s Prayer, A personal relationship with Jesus (These are all great by the way).
The point about “The Tradition” is that it is a “LIVING authority”.
(A Bible without this is useless ….as The Eunuch says to Phillip in Acts 8:26-40).
With a living authority there is no need for ALL the answers to be set out day One. And this is what we see in the NT.
So The Church is “LED into all truth” as
Jesus told his Apostles.
So there were Councils. The first was
Jerusalem in Acts 15….where The Apostles IGNORE SCRIPTURE to teach
NEW TEACHINGS WITH AUTHORITY.
So “The Trinity”,
“Hypostatic Union” etc. come from later Councils.
I will see if this post “sticks” before saying more.
Blessings to you “she grabs the curtain”
This is PART 2 (see other reply first)
Anyhoo!
Tradition? or Book?
Do you realise yet that “the book” is a PART of the tradition. It comes later & comes from the bigger, wider tradition?
The Jews were awaiting the Messiah who would “re-establish the Davidic Kingdom, that would last
forever & encompass The Nations”. They were not expecting “A New Book”……and Jesus never mentions one.
So Jesus talks about “The Kingdom” incessantly.
And in Matt 16:18-19 Jesus calls This Kingdom-of-Heaven “my Church”.
He tells Peter it will never fail & He gives Peter “The Keys” of This Kingdom-of-Heaven. The sign of the King’s total authority.
He selects 12 Apostles as the princes for the 12 tribes and sets one up as The Davidic Steward.
So, instead of writing a book, Jesus founded a living Church/Kingdom/Tradition … “that would never fail” (Matt 16:18); that he would be with until the end of time (Matt 28:20); & “lead into all Truth” (John 16:13).
And if you want to hear this “Word-of-God” he said “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Protestant Christians tend to forget Jesus was totally Jewish, & the Jewish Messiah. His Apostles were all Jewish, and, although the nations will flock to His Kingdom-of-Heaven, it remains of Jewish character.
The Apostles carried on with Jewish habits, customs & assumptions until
circumstances required adaptions. Amongst these assumptions is the role of “oral tradition”. The Jews had their Tanakh (Old Testament) but it required interpretation by Rabbis, Scribes & Pharisees. These oral expoundings were called The Talmud. They were written down later, in the second century AD & called The Mishnah & more added centuries later again called the Gemara.
This Jewish “oral system” just carried on in Catholic (& Orthodox) Christianity.
It recognises that using scriptures as a self-expanatory, or all-sufficient, book, is impossible.
“But Jesus hated the Scribes etc.” you might say?
No, Jesus told the people that their religious leaders, despite all their sins, had DIVINE guidance. That’s why, just before he condemned the Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees in Matthew 23, he gave an unqualified approval to their teachings!
“The scribes and Pharisees have taken their seat on the Chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever that they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but do not practice” (Matthew 23:2,3)
The Jews were to obey their corrupt, but legitimate, leaders because God saw to it that they taught the truth even when failing morally.
This became the notion of the Catholic teaching authority, that the Seat of Moses, passed down in succession for 1500 years until the time of Christ, and the High Priesthood of Caiaphas, continued in the Church where it became the Seat of Peter.
REMEMBER CATHOLICISM IS POST-MESSIANIC JUDAISM. It is the people-of-God who accepted the Messiah.
So “Christianity (Post Messianic Judaism) is not a simple “Book-Religion”.
Jesus DISCIPLED Apostles, & sent them to disciple others saying He would be “with you until the end of time” (thus with their successors)
So what do the Earliest Christians do… “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”. (Acts 2:42) ” the breaking of bread and the prayers” is the Eucharist (Mass). (Check with The Didache) ” the apostles’ teaching” (Not Scriptures!)
Remember these Christians had no “Bible”. They could only read The Tanakh at The Synagogue.
AND JUST HOW WAS THIS “ORAL GOSPEL” PRESERVED?
Paul says…. (2 Tim 2:2)
“You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well.”
(Nothing there about
writing books, printing them up, scripture studies etc.!)
ie
You take what I taught you…. (1
generation)
Teach this to others…. ………..(2 generations)
Who will teach others………… (3 generations)
Just as Jesus “discipled” His Apostles & gave them “all authority” so they discipled others to succeed them.
This is catholic/orthodox apostolic succession
This carried on seamlessly into the Early Church.
Some of the earliest Church (Apostolic) Fathers were discipled by the Apostles. Bishops like St Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna & Clement of Rome. They learnt the faith from The Apostles lips; and they all left writings.
Consider St Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch. He was ordained by St Peter & taught by St John. He had to walk to Rome, with 5 guards, for martyrdom by lions circa 107 AD (70 years after Christ’s Passion).
En route he wrote 7 Epistles.
Do you think he knew the “Apostolic Faith” (which Peter & John taught him, & for which he died) better than Luther in Germany 1500 years later (who claimed to have “rediscovered the real
Gospel”)
So read chapters 7, 8, & 9 here….
(Go to “Newadvent” epistle of St Ignatius to Smyrneans)
Praying to Mary (Asking for her help)???
Well we know Christian were doing this by 250 ‘ish AD
Please Google “Sub Tuum Paesidium”
It was widespread & not controversial either…which anything dodgy certainly was! So it is an extremely ancient tradition.
So, if you accept that Jesus is The Messiah & that The Messiah is GOD’S LAST WORD TO MAN… prophesied to “conquer all nations” how can you believe His sacred, Messiah-founded Church went belly-up within a 100 years or so? And then that the Holy Ghost deserted us for 1500 years or up to 1900 years depending which denomination you follow. And that the Church that required God himself, in Jesus, to found, had to be re-founded by Luther, Calvin, Melancthon, Zwingli. Bucer, Fox. Smyth etc etc etc etc. The Messiah’s Church cannot be re-founded by a mere mortal!
It is the organic Body of the actual physical incarnated Church He founded that is His Kingdom. As The Davidic Kingdom it has its princes (bishops) & its Steward (Al-Habbayit) Peter (popes). It has order & authority. It is guaranteed to teach truth even when individual leaders fail morally.
This is the fulfillment & completion of Judaism.
And…bye-the-bye…. “His Mother” is YOUR Mother.
Is Jesus your Brother?
If He is, who is your mum?
And in John John 19:25-29 Jesus last act is to say to “The Beloved Disciple” (INSERT YOUR OWN NAME) “Here is your Mother” …..not “Look after her” or “Be LIKE a Son to her”.
It is a Cosmic fact. That’s why Jesus calls her
“Woman” the Second-Eve…..MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Hebrews 12:22 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.12.22.NIV
That first line says: “you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” Have you already come to the the Mount Zion and heavenly New Jerusalem? He is talking about the overall picture- what is destined for us all as believers in Christ. What you did is carry pick a few verses to suit your agenda. Poor scholarship would view the Heb 12 as a literal foot-race being run and a literal cloud of saints surrounding people wherever they go. Heb 12:1 was speaking of the many in the chapter 11. He is saying in a sense- they have run the race.
The metaphor is of a race. He is describing how the ones having run are in the stands, cheering. Hoping for your finish. He is not saying a literal cloud of them are physically surrounding you. Again, good understanding of the passage understands the context and what writers describe..
Those who died are spiritual beings having entered rest. They are awaiting when Christ returns to awake and receive their new bodies. According to the Lordʼs word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/1th.4.15.NIV-
They are asleep. Resting from labor.
So confused, right?
1.2 Billion People can’t be wrong…
Actually, she is quite alive…
TO MARY ANG SUSAN D HARRIS IN THIS FORUM, KINDLY BEAR WITH ME, ONCE AND FOR ALL, to
explain concerning Idolatry and Worship. (I would be borrowing from
Catholic Apologetic organization, Catholic Answers, Inc, for whom all
credits be due) In my initiative to explain I would encourage open
heart and mind, and not allowing malice in our heart but pure love of
our fellowmen. The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in
English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the
condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in
the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to
someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
For
many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor,
and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British
subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although
Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British
subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even
despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are
giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor
appropriate to God.
Outside of this example,
however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to
indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is
due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can
still find books that use “worship” in the older, broader sense. This
can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are
familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own
circles encounter material written in other times and other places.
In
Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in
the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate
between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is
due to God and which is not.
As the terminology of
Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to
refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to
refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who
lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture
indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A
special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the
Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term,
hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that
the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given
to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind.
However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is
fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite
Creator.
All of these terms—latria, dulia,
hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word “worship.”
Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how
particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word
“worship” by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of
dulia.” To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of
these terms, however, this is too confusing.
Another
attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and
that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to
describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms
venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans.
Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”
Unfortunately,
many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church
that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions.
They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics “worship” Mary
and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently
false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so
strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship
anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The
Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what
contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.
Though
one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to
simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit
discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more
perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar
only with their group’s use of the term “worship,” they may misperceive a
history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their
declarations that the term is applicable only to God. TO BE CONTINUED
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE ON IDOLATRY AND WORSHIP.
Continued: Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.
Both
of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and
precepts of the Bible. The term “worship” was used in the same
way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover
both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown
to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It
is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.
For
example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him
concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated
literally the passage states: “‘[B]ehold, we were binding sheaves in the
field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your
sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then
he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said,
‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon,
and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’”
In
Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and
concerning Judah he stated: “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your
hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall
worship [shakhah] you (49:8).” And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his
father-in-law, Jethro: “Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and
worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of
their welfare, and went into the tent.”
Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.
Honoring Saints
Consider
how honor is given. We regularly give it to public officials. In the
United States it is customary to address a judge as “Your Honor.” In the
marriage ceremony it used to be said that the wife would “love, honor,
and obey” her husband. Letters to legislators are addressed to “The
Honorable So-and-So.” And just about anyone, living or dead, who bears
an exalted rank is said to be worthy of honor, and this is particularly
true of historical figures, as when children are (or at least used to
be) instructed to honor the Founding Fathers of America.
These
practices are entirely Biblical. We are explicitly commanded at
numerous points in the Bible to honor certain people. One of the most
important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s
parents: “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long
in the land which the Lord your God gives you” (Ex. 20:12). God
considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times
in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke
18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s
elders in general: “You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor
the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord”
(Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious
leaders: “Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest],
to give him dignity and honor” (Ex. 28:2).
The New
Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the
Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: “Pay all of them their dues,
taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to
whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due” (Rom. 13:7). He also
stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: “Slaves, be
obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling,
in singleness of heart, as to Christ” (Eph. 6:5). “Let all who are
under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor,
so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed” (1 Tim.
6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter:
“Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor” (1
Pet. 2:17).
The New Testament also stresses the
importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give
them special honor in 1 Timothy: “Let the presbyters [priests] who rule
well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor
in preaching and teaching” (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised
special blessings to those who honor religious figures: “He who receives
a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and
he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man
shall receive a righteous man’s reward” (Matt. 10:41).
So,
if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have
an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be
no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who
ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s
special friends certainly should be honored.
Statue Worship?
People
who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues.
Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues.
After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk
of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to
plaster still in the mixing bowl.
The fact that
someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying
to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his
hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or
paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the
person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother
by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the
saints by looking at representations of them.
The
use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols)
also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God
commanded: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work
shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub
on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the
mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim
shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with
their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the
faces of the cherubim be.”
In Numbers 21:8–9, he
told Moses: “‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one
who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze
serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would
look at the bronze serpent and live.” This shows the actual ceremonial
use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God
(healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself
is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic
representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had
commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they
did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This
clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues
and idolatry.
God bless you for your enlightened words! I hope you will consider writing a book or two or three that incorporates this information. You are CLEARLY very well educated about our faith, and you have a native intelligence that is rare these days. Your comments were posted 6 months ago, and I don’t know if you will ever see my reply, but I hope you do and that I’ve encouraged you to WRITE in a venue in which many will see what you have to say.
Thank you Silver for your kind appreciation of my writings about Mary. I know i would have much problem in writing a book since I have no experience, besides there are many books available about Many. The other difficulty that I have is, I am a handicapped, a stroke survivor for 12 years now, and I thank the Lord so much for sharing me part of His sufferings in the cross. I have no complain in bearing all the pain and sufferings that I have and I hope our loving Lord will heal me soon in accordance to His will. Thank you again Silver and may the Lord bless you and the whole of your family. (I live with my physical condition without a family member with me, but I am very thankful I have a caregivers here in Manila who are faithful and caring.)
@silverRoseparnell:disqus I was a Catholic but this is a lie, the Catholics do pray to the saints and Mary for intercession which is not what Christ wanted. Also, not all Catholics worship Mary but some do, especially those who have recently converted from a polytheistic religion like Hinduism.
@josesamilin:disqus I dont’ want to convince you otherwise but you test the spirit that led you to say what all you said and reach your own conclusions in truth and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. We’ll anyway all find out after pass from this world.
Yes, We pray to the saints and ask them to PRAY FOR US. It does not matter what SOME Catholics do. It matters what is the official teaching of the Catholic Church and it is to honor and ask the Saints to pray for us. Meaning we understand that the SAINTS do not answer our prayers. God answers our prayers. The Saints pray to God for HIM to answer our prayers. Please read it again. There were many facts and Bible support but you seem to have skipped all that. If asking anyone to pray for us is worship then you would be sinning if you asked YOUR mother or friend to pray for you. Sounds silly doesn’t it? Here is what the Catechism has to say. This is the official teaching.
“”””Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (CCC 2634)”””””
I wish I had more time but I have to work. I’ll leave you with a thought. Do you really believe Jesus would not like us to honor his mother? Do you think it might make him sad that so many people like you dishonor her? Just food for thought.
FYI, I’m not protestant. Dudette, I’m chill about anyone wanting to do anything they want but it just seems irrational in terms of God being infinite to pray to Mary is all. Hey, if it makes you feel good, more power to you! If miracles happen, more power to you! (Btw, the Catholic argument for “would Jesus not like us to honor his mama” is a real cop out yo, there’s like a world of difference between honoring someone and you know , praying to them, and ya you gonna say intercession right? But I’ve seen quite a few people in my Church say Praise Mary, my grandmom would infact tell me Don’t pray to Jesus he won’t hear your pray because he’s stern, pray to Mary she’ll tell Jesus to do it and he can’t say no to his mama, and also so many Catholics I know refuse to pray to Jesus because they say it’s ineffective, and no I am not making this up). Anyway, maybe I’m wrong about all this, but heh, if I’m correct, (which I believe I am), I just might be onto something here no? My 2 cents. In the end we are all saved by grace, unless God chooses you only then you get chosen. 1001 prayers won’t take you to heaven unless God decides that ya this dude/dudette coming to heaven. Also I don’t believe in Sola scriptura, because there’s no where in the Bible that says by Bible alone 😛
It doesn’t matter that you ask them to “pray for you” it is still wrong.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus
Only if you are “born from the above” as Jesus told Nicodemus in the Gospel of John 3:3 do we recognize the Kingdom of God here on this earth and commune with other saints. I sincerely pray that you do not pass from this world without knowing the Lord Jesus (not just knowing about Him, but knowing Him personally). 1 Peter 1:23 “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.” This new birth is to be had in THIS LIFE ON EARTH, not after we have physically died. Peter had told the readers “..you have been”. It is PAST TENSE!
Rajesh is absolutely correct. Let me add: only if you are “born from the above” as Jesus told Nicodemus in the Gospel of John 3:3 do we recognize the Kingdom of God here on this earth and commune with other saints. I sincerely pray that you do not pass from this world without knowing the Lord Jesus (not just knowing about Him, but knowing Him personally). 1 Peter 1:23 “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.” This new birth is to be had in THIS LIFE ON EARTH, not after we have physically died. Peter had told the readers “..you have been”. It is PAST TENSE!
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I trust that they are in fact orthodox (i.e. official) Catholic expositions.
Do you mind sharing a typical prayer that one makes to Mary (peace be upon her) or a saint?
thanks
Yes A Muslim Guy makes no difference as His human creature for whom God’s incarte in Jesus came to earth to save us in all creations and reveal God through the Sacred Scriptures, the Word of God. We cannot just say above as Catholic exposition and believed by Catholics only, but rather Catholics exposition that has universal application and belief, because it was made on the pastoral principle of above all charity, states as follows: The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love. From Cathechism of the Catholic Church, number 25.
For your request of typical prayers, please click link:https://www.kofc.org/en/resources/cis/devotionals/basicprayers.pdf
The “Hail Mary” (Ave Maria in Latin).
“Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women & blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death. Amen”
The first section are two verses from The Gospel of Luke.
The second is an entreaty to prayer for us.
Jesus is our brother, and we pray to him all the time.
But, we are now in God’s family. So we ask the Father for our needs in Jesus name…..and we also ask “our” Mum (Mary, mother of Jesus & us) to ask Him……because we know he never refuses His mum.
(see my reply to your other post shortly for more detail Muslim Guy)
Have you never read Luke 11:27-28?
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You.” He replied, “BLESSED RATHER are those who hear the word of God and OBEY IT”…
Why not open your Bible that’s gathering dust and ask earnestly that the Holy Spirit give you understanding as to what it is saying?
The woman speaking to Jesus wanted to praise Jesus’ mother, but Jesus’ emphasis was that HE ALONE IS TO BE WORSHIPED and GLORIFIED. We can all agree the Mary was blessed (because God chose her to bear Jesus). Nevertheless, she needed to be saved by the very blood of the LORD JESUS THE CHRIST. Luke 1:46-47 “Then Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!”
Alexander! According to your exegesis Jesus broke the 4th Commandment
“Glorify your Father & Mother”
(We know how He glorified His Father & you could see in Revelations 11:19 through 12 how He has glorified His Mother if you remove the Protestant-Tradition-Reading-Glasses).
The passage you cite
(Luke 11:27-28) can be better understood as Jesus using this praise of His mother’s “luck-at-being-chosen” as a teaching
opportunity to explain ….WHY SHE was chosen.
He does the same in Mark 3:32-35.
If you read the page I linked in my last reply, and learn what the Angel’s obeisant greeting to Mary “kaire, kekaritomene” meant, you can begin to understand the Bible “as-a-whole” instead of this “proof-texting” (You seem to have the standard list?).
I link it again below.
But be careful this man is an ex-Catholic-baiter himself. A
former Baptist, & Assemblies-of-God Minister. He came unstuck
using “Call no man your father….” on a well-informed
Catholic. (Is that text next on your list?)
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
It is a Protestant who
said ”
“A Text without a context is just a pretext for what
we want it to mean”
Your use of proof-texts runs you into contradicting other texts.
Perhaps this will help you. Protestants are usually woefully ignorant of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNV2KGQATSs
Alexander you seem to also base your posts on the
man-made-tradition of Sola Scriptura. This not only fails its own
test (being nowhere in The Bible) but is plainly contradicted many
times therein.
There are also many, many other problems with this
foundation of sand. But until you can prove that (& no-one ever
has) much of what you say is human-opinion based on a fallacy.
Alexander you keep referring to proof-texts from Lukes Gospel but you need to meditate on it to.
LUKE UNMISTAKEABLY TELLS YOU (though cryptically) MARY IS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT!
At the moment of Jesus’s conception, the Angel said God’s Holy Spirit would “overshadow” Mary.
This was The exact language of the “Shekinah” that overshadowed The Ark of The Covenant when God’s Spirit descended upon it, to dwell amongst men.
The Old Ark (lined with gold inside & out) had to be pristine,…. because it contained:-
(1)The word of God on stone tablets
(2)Manna from the Desert
(3)Aaron’s high-priestly staff.
The New living Ark of Mary fulfills, completes & excells The Old Ark.
Mary contained, in the Ark of her womb…….
(1)The living word of God. The Logos.
(2)The living Bread of Heaven (ref. John 6:22-71 “Bread of Life” discourse)
(3)The living true High Priest. This will bud & grow a new priesthood.
And Luke goes on to underline this
VISITATION (OF MARY/NEW-ARK)
(1)Mary goes to…. “The hill country of Judea”
(2)John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeths womb at the sound of Mary’s voice
(3)Elizabeth says “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?”
(4)Mary stays 3 months there
(5)The whole house is blessed
EXACT REPLAY of 2 Samuel 6
VISITATION OF OLD ARK
(1) The Ark is taken to ……”The hill country of Judea”
(2)David leaps & dances before it
(3)He says “Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to visit me?”
(4)The Ark stays there 3 months
(5)The whole house is blessed
Luke was a knowledgable Jew.
He knew exactly what he was “saying”here.
What’s the alternative? This is just a list of
utterly fantastic coincidences (there aren’t any in The Bible)
In this Ark (being also New Eve) The new Adam took
“flesh of her flesh, bones of her bones” subsuming
these three objects into one, living person….Jesus Christ.
And in 9 months Mary turned her bread, wine etc.
into The Body of Christ, which she (as New Eve) brought forth as her fruit back to the tree of Life, waiting obediently
there-under, whilst standing on The Skull (Golgotha) “&
crushing its head.” The Fall was perfectly reversed, so we are
now told to eat of the flesh of this fruit.
Mary’s womb was The Ark, that contained the living God Himself, the holiest place on Earth. Her womb would be God’s Holy of holies, where He would dwell upon Earth.
Note the fastidious preparations for The Old Ark of The Covenant. (Immaculate Conception)
Note how Uzzah was smitten just for touching it. (Perpetual Virginity)
Did The Jews worship The Ark? No……but they greatly venerated it
(And as they venerated it, with its statues of Cherubim thereon, a time-travelling Protestant might cry out “Catholic Idolators”, not realising the Jews likewise venerated & glorified God in & through His saving gifts )
Please try to takle on board some of the great depth of Catholic/Orthodox biblical thought on Mary & come back with more than a sniping proof-text.
So Jesus DID sin Alexander! According to your exegesis He broke the 4th Commandment “Glorify your Father & Mother”
(We know how He glorified His Father & you could see in Revelations 11:19 through 12 how He has glorified His Mother. Queen in Heaven clothed with the Sun. )
The passage you cite (Luke 11:27-28) can be better understood as Jesus using this praise of His mother’s “luck-at-being-chosen” as a
teaching-opportunity to explain ….WHY SHE was chosen. He does the same in Mark 3:32-35.
If you read the page I linked in my last reply, and learn what the Angel’s obeisant greeting to Mary
“kaire, kekaritomene” meant, you can begin to understand the Bible “as-a-whole” instead of this standard-protestant “proof-texting”.
I link it again below.
But be careful this man is an ex-Catholic-baiter himself. A former Baptist, & Assemblies-of-God
Minister, he came unstuck using “Call no man your father….” on a well-informed Catholic.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
It is a Protestant who said “A Text without a context is just a pretext for what we want it to mean”
Your use of texts runs you into contradicting other texts.
Alexander you seem to also based your posts on the 16th Century man-made-tradition of Sola Scriptura. This not only fails its own test (being nowhere in The Bible) but is plainly contradicted many times therein.
There are also many, many other problems with this foundation of sand. But until you can prove Sola Scriptura (& no-one ever has) much of what you say is human-opinion (Protestant-tradition) based on a fallacy.
I thought that Jesus said: “No one comes to the father except through me.” Mary and the Saints are not without sin, no one is, not even the Pope. The only person in the history of mankind who was divine and completely without sin is Jesus. People revere the Pope wherever he goes in the world as though he is Jesus…..why ?
When you pray for anyone else, you ask God through Jesus, as he commanded. To ask anyone else goes against his instruction.
INTERCESSIONS
Jesus also told us to love one another.
And interceding for one another is an essential part of “loving one another”.
If you do not pray for your family, friends & those in need how are you loving them completely?
As members of “The Body of Christ” when we intercede for one another we are doing so “in Christ”.
THIS INTERCESSION IS BIBLICAL
Four verses before Paul tells us there is only ONE (Unique) Mediator he says this
( 1 Timothy 2:1-4)
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth”
INTERCESSION IS MEDIATION
Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something
infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
Why would this surprise us?
Christ is unique in many ways but He asks us to IMITATE HIM IN ALL THINGS.
So, in your denomination, people don’t don’t ask others to pray for them? If they do, they are
acting in the same way we ask our mother Mary to act.
Yes Jesus is the One, unique Mediator; but the NT is full of people doing this for each other as well.
He is The ONE unique Son-of-God, but the NT tell us all to be sons (or daughters) of God as well.
Jesus is many things…..that he invites us to immitate & follow. At the same time His role in each is absolutely unique
(Catholic = Both/And……Protestant = Either/or)
It’s not EITHER Jesus intercedes OR we do.
MARY’S SINLESSNESS.
(1)Do you believe God the Son took REAL, HUMAN flesh from Mary? If so was it sinful & corrupt flesh that He took?
(Job 14:4) “Who can bring purity out of an impure person? No one!
(2)For 9 months Mary’s womb was The Living Ark of The Covenant, The Tabenacle of God on Earth. But not just a container. Mary actually GAVE God humanity. Her blood ran through His veins; She gave Him a heart to be broken, blood to spill for us, & flesh of her flesh bone of her bone to be scourged. She is the New Eve to the New Adam (from the earliest Church Fathers)
Think of the implications.
All that care in preparing the ARK (gold inside & out; Uzzah dying for touching it) IS ABOUT MARY.
Protestants are unknowingly unaware of the vast Typology of Mary in the OT that has to be fulfilled in the NT.
Please, please study this………
Start here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNV2KGQATSs
Google Mary & Typology. You may realise how much you have been missing from The Bible.
Thank you Jose! I have studied Catholic Doctrine and read much on this subject and you have explained it beautifully.
You’re welcome, Marylamb. We continue learning our faith and persevere on it, since whenever we leave our room and into the hallways and byways, in our work place, etc there is always challenge to our faith and we must be ready to explain our faith and the love of God in us. There are many of us when we meet the door to door Christians who are so quick to open their Bible, very often we are carried away by their knowledge of the Bible and sometimes we are getting convinced by them to leave our faith. But to leave our faith is not the answer whenever we encounter difficulties, The problem is like question in science and math, the answer is right there we just need to study farther and deeper, like the case in our faith. We are pretty sure we are holding on the true faith because the church who taught us, Christ is the head, which these Christians cannot claim. In other words, teachings can be all traced as from the Apostles who received them from Christ. In other words, the church we belong has unique characteristics which only the Catholic Church can claim, as follows: the church is
ONE, the church is HOLY, the church is Catholic or is heralded throughout the world, and lastly (but not the least) the church is Apostolic.
Jose, God NEVER commanded in the Bible any image of Mary to be made; He commanded ONLY the bronze snake and cherubim to be made, NOT MARY. And the bronze serpent and the cherubim are only shadows of the REALITY who is JESUS THE CHRIST. Even if you have a painting of Christ in your home, you are breaking the 2nd Commandment. If a mental picture in our futile imagination of how Christ looks like is IDOLATRY! I clearly remember as a young boy in Roman Catholicism that I prayed to a statue. NO ONE TAUGHT ME NOT TO! I really pray that someday soon you and most of the other Roman Catholics who are deceived by these false teachings will truly understand what is repentance as described in the Bible and really meet the risen Lord!
Alexander, you have pictures of your loved ones on your cell phone and computer, why are you worshipping them you pagan idolator?
Having belief that the bible alone is an authority on teaching along with private self interpretation is superstition. It often leads to the false belief that we can do as we want we as long as we “believe” in Jesus. I was once a Protestant but now I am a proud Mary loving, rosary rattling, St Michael devoted, Jesus praising Catholic. Belief in Christ isn’t real if one doesn’t do as he and the Father have commanded.
Also maybe you should ask Jesus about how Je feels about you talking about his Mom like that. Secondly if I were you I’d ask him how would He feel about you lying about His bride (the Catholic Church) by the way the Catholic Church is the only Church. Not “churches”. After all a house divided cannot stand and Protestants are very much divided.
Did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary?
Yes or no.
Did Jesus tell us not to pray to Mary? Yes or No. Either way He din’t say it. So it’s irrelevant. For Catholics, it doesn’t matter whether you pray or not to pray to Mary, but please, don’t bother those who choose to pray to Mary.
Dude, Jesus actually tells us how to pray. Ever heard of the “Our Father”? *cough cough*
You didn’t answer my question, did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary in her name?
Search the scriptures, and you will find that Jesus said to ask, seek, knock, and pray in His name only. Now is that irrelevant?
It should matter when catholics pray to Mary in her name and to all those hundreds of canonized saints in their names, because it is idolatry.
Do you know of any catholics who choose not to pray to Mary in her name? Do you think Jesus will dishonor them for the choice they made?
It did not say “only” you added that yourself. There are many passages that say for one another, and that is not idolatry. To say it as idolatry is your own understanding, and not what is said in the bible. So if you chose to pray to Mary in addition to asking your friend to pray for you, its not a superfluous.
Many people intrepid when Jesus said
“pray one to another ”
he was speaking to the living.
Not people that had died of flesh and their spirit had passed on.
I think if someone could present a scripture where Jesus instructed us to pray to Mary or
the saints passed on.
They could help a lot of people struggling with that debate.
God is not a creator of confusion. He is a loving father.
But just like any Good parent. There are rules that must be adhered to, and consequences for the actions there of.
We will reap what we sewed. but that does not mean God does not love us. there are no loop holes….lol
Jesus was clear in his teachings. Jesus is the only lamb the son of God.
And he is the only person that has walked the earth and lived without sin.
So others passed on are not the same as him. So I don’t feel God would give the other his ear, over Jesus.
Or, some would just pray to your relatives passed on that you knew personally and trusted,
rather than the saints they have never known on a personal face to face level.
I think that is a thought that many people struggle with .
So, if someone has some actual scriptures that instruct us to pray to Mary or the saints that has passed on.
I am sure it would be appreciated to a lot of people. The goal is help people find understanding and a relationship with God..
Not to just prove others wrong… lol
The holy men of Jesus time tried to chastise Jesus for not following the traditional religious laws of the land.
And Jesus warned them about being righteous men, rather than spiritual men.
He warned them not to put traditions of man over Gods true word “Jesus teachings”.
So even Jesus did not follow traditions of man which did not line up with Gods word.
So we must not fall into the fallen ones trap.
And get stuck debating rather than leaving behind the walls of the brick and mortar buildings…
By go out into the world as Jesus did to spread Gods word.
There are to many self proclaimed Christians Hiding behind the building walls damning others to hell that don’t line up to their standards that was never required by Jesus Christ…
Rather than trying to give them Gods words and save their soul.
Nothing But love to all.
Hi Jose,
It’s right to correct people instead of leaving the blind leading the blind.
Your Ans: No Jesus didn’t tell us not to pray to Mary specifically
. Mary is dead and rest in peace now.
She will rose with the dead in last day and be judged accordingly just like you and me pal.
Don’t you know that???
Grow up and read Bible yourself so you’ll stop believing in man made laws and doctrines.
Repent from your sins be baptised by full immersion receive the holy spirit than you will understand all God’s secrets behind all His words.
What are you trying to correct, if you in itself do not fully understand or fully immersed in the Bible. Stephen you lack that expertise in the Bible and you are using isolated verses which contradicts proper interpretation of other verses in the Bible., I urge you read first my explanation earlier in this forum, fully supported by biblical proper verses. For sure you only study the Bible beginning from Reformation or in the 16 Century to present, so how about from the 1st to 16th Century?
Why do you treat The New Testament as a Catechism, when it plainly is no such thing?
Luke SHOWS Mary interceding for her people!
He SHOWS it!
(At Cana where she acts as Gebirah….have you even looked that up yet?
Note Jesus changes His own will to accede to her intercession!!!! )
That is how the Gospel truthes were written…..not as a catechism
But how twisted, inconsistent, and full of double-standards this is…..
I could say “Show me in the Bible exactly where Jesus says I must accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord & Saviour” (That’s a good thing, but it ain’t in The Bible) …..or where Jesus says Sola Scriptura? NOWHERE!….. And yet this is what you are PRESUPPOSING here.
But only ancient catholic doctrines are subjected to this scrutiny, not to modern Protestant ones.
Be consistent. Be open.
And before you say a word about Catholic belief, read what The Catechism of The Catholic Church actually teaches (it’s online).
Don’t repeat what Protestants have told you ABOUT Catholicism.
It’s all mythology, or worse.
On the cross Jesus says “Behold thy mother” to John. And from the Early Church Fathers, Christians took John as representing us all, as children of The New Eve….Mother of the Redeemed, Mother Of The Church, Mother of Christ’s Body.
Oh , but it isn’t EXPLICIT enough for you maybe?
Neither is The Trinity…..
So decide on a CONSISTENT standard for what you are going to accept.
I know Protestants don’t read The Church Fathers and usually don’t even know they exist!
But Yes! there are many early Christian writings, right from those who studied under The Apostles on down.
Protestants avoid them, because, when they do read them, they are shocked to find The CATHOLIC Church ……from the very earliest days.
Christ guaranteed His Church would never fail, and that he would be with it to the end of time…
So how can you believe that Jesus’s OWN Church apostasised, and The Holy Spirit went on Holiday for 1600 years…. until He woke up thanks to Luther!
Then the Holy Spirit got thoroughly confused as Protestant denominations multiplied to 40,000 today….All with Sola Scriptura, All with The Holy Spirit and all disagreeing.
Meanwhile The Catholic Church just carries on.
How can you even begin to believe such a wonky narrative….That God’s OWN church (that he guaranteed would never fail) failed!!!!
And then it is refounded properly by Luther, then Calvin, Zwingli, Knox. Smyth ……all the way down to Joseph Smith’s Mormons & Taize-Russells JW’s
This narrative means The Son of God, the Messiah, lied and failed …..but Luther et al can do it!!!
You never answered my question, did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary in her name?
Romans 1:16 Paul says “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, it is the power of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the Jew and also to the Greek”. The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write this, therefore scripture alone is the power of God for salvation, not your catechism.
Well, you just keep right on praying to Mary in her name, because it won’t get you to heaven, it will take you to hell because it is idolatry. Jesus said to ask, seek and knock in His name only, and He said to pray in His name only.
No, I don’t need to apologize to Jesus for praising Him and not Mary. How can the catholic church be the only bride of Christ when it denies the sanctity of scripture alone, when it is ashamed and embarrassed toward the gospel of Christ.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Timothy 3:5 KJV
Idolatry means Mary replaces God. Then I would agree with you. But if you listen to Christ on the Cross who gave HER to us as Our Mother…..then praying to Mary is asking for intercession- just as you would ask a friend on earth to pray for you. Except….she bore the Christ in her womb; don’t you wanna ask her to help you with your problems? The Queen Mother is the BEST intercessor to help your problems get resolved with the Lord!
On the cross Jesus told John to take care of Mary, Jesus did not give her to us as our mother nor to the world. Jesus said to ask, seek and knock in His name only, and to pray in His name only. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to bring us closer to Christ, not Mary. No I don’t wanna ask her to solve my problems. Jesus is the BEST intercessor to help us with our problems. Praying to Mary in her name is absolute idolatry, but catholics have been brain washed since childhood to think it is absolutely OK to pray to her.
1 John 4 says “beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus has come in the flesh is of God, every spirit that does not confess that is not of God.”
All the apparitions of Mary never once confessed that Jesus came in the flesh. These apparitions are not of Mary.
I second you and totally agreed Mary.
Yes the true salvation is in John 3: 3-5
Acts 2:38
Mark16: 17 and there’s more…
Yes Jesus showed us the way as he mentioned in John 14:6 and that way is through the water of baptism by full immersion come out receiving the Holy Spirit….and that is where God will chose you as his own. That is exactly why John told Jesus that he is too great to be baptise by John but Jesus said ,”do this to honour or fulfill what my Father sent me here to do.
Called yourself Christians than here is the question Acts 19: 2 “Did you receive the holy spirit since you believe.?”
Please don’t talk about brainwashing and speaking of the actions within a religion you have never been apart of. I find it inconsistent that protestants and others sometimes believe Jesus was talking to THEM and at other times was not- depending upon what position they are using scripture to bolster. Jesus told Peter is is the Rock upon which He will build His church and you believe He is speaking to YOU and not just to Peter; likewise with binding and loosing. Yet when dying Jesus said to John, ‘Behold your mother’, suddenly this has nothing to do with you, and only John. I guess the one church Jesus created really meant 40,000 denominations, all created by men who had an issue with an existing one. Where is THAT permitted in the Scriptures? I guess with the list of Jesus’ brothers’ names and the verses telling how these siblings were not believers as another has stated above. This is what happens when scripture is relativistic and reduced to personal proclivities. Like the doctrine of sola scriptura which does not exist in scripture.
1.2 Billion People cannot be wrong…
No it isn’t… Idolatry is the worship of false gods…
Emily, I would appreciate knowing citations from the deuterocanonical books.
Thanks Emily for a simple but vivid means to explain to all of us why we ought to pray to Mary, through the “Body of Christ.” Of course there are other approaches, like like understanding first the majestic role of Mary in the salvation history in relation to the New and Old Covenants, etc. But yours is the most simple way and most concern us as part of the Body of Christ, the Church and the Head is Jesus Christ itself.
Let us get back to the question, why pray to Mary? In fact, the very people questioning this comes directly from Non-Catholics teachers or Pastors that rejected the Church established by Christ and profess mastery of the Scriptures but dimly understand what is in the Scripture truth about the “Body of Christ.” Emily’s way to enlighten us about the question that will led us to the answer and therefore, giving us understanding on this matter in Scriptures. If they have (sic) the mastery of Scriptures and proud to teach Bible truth, why then they openly question and trying to prove themselves right, its “idolatry,” Wrong!! The answer is these teachers and Pastors had already been rejected by them these passages in the Bible, so how could grace comes to them to be given by the Holy Spirit when the evil of sin had consumed them to reject Christ teaching in the Bible? Sorry to go a bit too far, but no that’s being part of it, a little jolt needed. Non-Catholics should face it ,”head-on in humility” otherwise, they were heading to the tendency of natural flesh without life.
Yes, we are member of the Body of Christ but where do we belong on the three types of Body of Christ, which is the Church, namely; Church Militant, Church Suffering or Purgatory or purification and lastly the Church Triumphant and the cooperation of these three called the “Communion of Saints” We, the who are still living are the Church Militant, who are like in the military we are always struggling to fight against the attack of the evil ones.
As explained by Emily above, please re-read Emily’s writings above and that answer why we ought to pray to Mary, most essentially, rather than going straight to Jesus which you cannot tolerate like the occasion of the Israelite in Mount Sinai.
But wait …. all the Catholics say “We don’t PRAY to Mary.” Yeah. Right.
Since you are interested on knowing answers to the many controvertial topics on Mary here is a website: catholic.com
What I read online is often different than what someone tells me one-on-one. Like “We don’t pray to Mary” being oft repeated. I read – but cannot reconcile praying to a dead woman, though she is/was blessed among women.
Susan, the answers were posted above. Thanks for this opportunity to explain our faith on Mary.
I’m sorry. I really wish I could be Catholic cuz it’s so much more interesting than Protestantism. But they think saints have a better chance of getting through to Jesus “since they’re right there with him?” That is the silliest thing I’ve ever heard! It actually made me laugh out loud. Jesus is right here with me right now. I don’t need an intercessor that is in closer proximity like taking a space shuttle to heaven. Well I’ll leave you alone and good luck to you – but many people say you DON’T pray to Mary – the mortal dead woman who we aren’t supposed to pray to, yet you are at odds with many in your faith when you say you do. I think I need to go to something besides Bible Study for Catholics This stuff isn’t even logical. Thank you for responding.
You’re welcome. I hope to have enlighten you with explanation on the biblical citation confronting the question of our faith. It is not really to abandon the faith would be the right answer when you are confronted with difficulties but to persevere to learn in order to overcome those difficulties, just like when you were saddled with difficulties in mathematics to find the right answer, you do not need to abandon it because the answer is right there, you just need to keep in studying it. Thank you Susan, more power to you in all your future endeavors and trust the Holy Spirit to guide you.
This theology debate can go on forever. Let me add from my experience. Having dabbled into occults including witchcraft and spritualism to undo witchcraft that was done to me, I’ll tell you praying to a deceased person is necromancy, whether saints or Mary. I’ve seen things way too many supernatural answers to prayers directed to saints or “dead ancestors” and I’ll confirm. You start praying to them, I doubt God is the one that answers, more like demons (familiar spirits). I say this from experience. I was baptized and raised Catholic and became secular for awhile and recently born again due to these experiences. Try fighting demons asking for Mary or the saints for help, doesnt work at all, the name of Jesus does. If fighting demons doesn’t clearly show what kind of prayers are effective then what does?
Does everything have to be logical? What is Faith to you?
You are going through great task to defend something that is clearly the same as worship and making requests of Mary and the specific saints. Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians are addressed to saints. In that case we can pray to all of them, not just to ones venerated by the RCC. You may say that is fine, but then that brings it all the more clear that this is a practice brought into the church from the ancient animist practices, ancestral incantations from all over the world, most every tribal group if we back far enough.
Is this not what God was so angry with in the practices of the pagan nations in the the Old Testament, starting in Noah’s era?
Donnie, as to worship, its fully explained above, the practice of incantation, etc,. were also discussed, and what else. Please, I do not need them to write here again. If anything more, kindly use my email: josesamilin181@yahoo.com
I read the diatribe. It is merely explaining away what it is: idolatry. No need to further discuss. I wrote above why the scriptures (and the early church, nor Hebrew practice which Jesus followed in earthly life) do not follow that pattern, which was derived purely from the Gentile practice of ancestral worship, end of story, no matter how you try to state it.
Very good, Donnie, i understand
that you persevere for your spiritual growth and as lay Catholic i will try to work with you, not only for your benefit but also in my own faith too. Firstly, on the question of worship, what is it to want me to clarify. Secondly, on Jesus practice while on earth, what is it today in our current generation have changed or is there a change after Jesus ascended t o heaven. I will only deal on Hebrew history of Jesus time but merely to bring connection of our present generation practice. So is that the thing you want? Or anything that bother you in the Catholic faith, so we could obey Christ teaching. Please let me know. The reason we need to localize or be specific so that I could be of help to you. Thanks.
And we all call ourselves Christian, followers of Jesus Christ the Messiah, and this is the kind of message that is sent. The bible is so open to interpretation that we need to trust Jesus and the Holy Spirit to guide and convict us. As Christians we are called to seek the Holy Spirit. Lets remember that we all serve the same awesome God who sent His only son who died to save us and that He showed us so much love so that we can show others. This kind of “fighting” is what the devil absolutely loves and lives off, we need to be aware of that.
I was simply stating where I stand. That is not fighting. I am friendly with Catholics and Orthodox folks, but this is my conviction from an understanding of the scriptures. We can differ in opinion and still believe and follow Christ together. Paul and many apostles disagreed greatly about requirements for gentile converts to Christ. My stand is not a condemnation of those who practice prayer to saints. It is God who judges us, but we are to discern for ourselves what is of God or not. I have nothing against my Catholic friends who are believers in Christ.
If you pray to Mary you are putting Mary as a equal to God and God has told us we are to only worship him. How much more black and white can you get than that? Only God can answer prayers, please show me where in the Bible it states we should pray to Mary and she will answer our prayers…….it doesn’t!
Not really!! Scripture alone forbids personal interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20-21. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Sonja Liecth, you seem to reject part of this Bible.
Jose. Jesus did not instruct us to pray to Mary. It’s not something that is remotely part of the Christian faith. While Mary was blessed among women, she too, still needed a savior. Jesus teaches us that nobody comes to the father except through him. The physically dead have done their time on Earth. They are with the father or they are dead in sin. Either way, they do not intercede for us. Praying to the dead is akin to witchcraft. The Bible teaches us that there is one intercessor between us and the father…period.
John, I noted all your questions were discussed above, kindly help your self so that I do not need to repeat here. if anymore that bothers you, please contact me at my email: josesamilin181@yahoo,com.
You didn’t answer me at all. You just ran away because you can’t defend the indefensible. Pagan goddess worship and witchcraft are cornerstones of the Catholic cult, and there is no defending it with scripture.
Please tell me John, what does true faith anything to do with those tradition determined by the church to be of no supernatural value? Those were exactly condemn in the bible and the Magisterium of the church. You can only talk about that to those people having your faith level. That is for personal and individual appropriation when it comes to faith.
So you’re tap dancing around the problem now.
That is something irrelevant, Sir!!
It’s not irrelevant at all! The issue is the Catholic Cult’s teachings of witchcraft (praying to physically dead people and believing that they drink the actual blood of Jesus) and goddess worship (Mary as coredemptrix) which are both contrary to scripture and thus indefensible.
Cult, witchcraft, goddess worship, etc, etc can’r be found as teaching of the Catholic Church from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If that is your faith, not mine, so I am citing categorically my religious freedom. I’ll be very specific now to you, THEY WERE TRULY IRRELEVANT, SO MR. JOHN WILSON “JUST SHUT UP.” IS THAT CLEAR??
So you’re also willingly blind to scripture too… Interesting. You can keep your prayers to Mary (goddess worship), prayers to the dead (witchcraft), and keep “killing” Jesus weekly to drink his blood (witchcraft, idolatry). Scripture tells us we only need one thing, and it’s not all of that. Also…mind your temper.
Since you can’t show that in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, then your allegation is false. People like you who practice them were outside the Catholic Church.. So please, I am citing my religious freedom not to practice those kind that are abominable to God.. That is your own choice as your own freedom to practice Cult, witchcraft and goddess worship. I have nothing to do with that. YOU JUST NEED TO SHUT UP. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO IMPUTE THE ABOMINABLE FAITH YOU HAVE TO OTHERS. YOU NEED TO PERSEVERE IN YOUR FAITH TO BE MORE ENLIGHTENED.
I dont need to show it in the catechism. That book is of man. I DO however see and hear plenty of Catholics and their priests practicing these heresies consistently, and it’s expressly forbidden by real scripture. I will not be silent about this. Millions of Catholics are being mislead by their cult.
I have nothing further. I am done with you.
how Catholic of you
I will love to make understand, all our brothers and sisters the beautiful, of the Catholic Faith, that we don’t worship ,Mother Mary all even the Saint’s
True Maria, what a good feeling to have more friends from among our separated brothers and sisters in Christ especially if we could take our fellowship with them and have the chance to explain our veneration to Mary and the Saints citing those related bible passages as proof that we do not worship Many and that these prayers are divinely effective We ourselves should study these passages and try to develop ways to present it to them in a situation of humility and non-invasive.
Thanks, French Toast M.. for your kind appreciation.
But it’s not a matter of WORSHIPING MARY, it’s that you talk to her at all. She is DEAD. It’s like trying to talk to anyone laying under a headstone.
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his
daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells
fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a
necromancer ***or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these
things
is an abomination to the Lord.**** And because of these abominations
the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless
before the Lord your God,
It states quite clearly talking to the dead is NOT permitted. So justying this by saying you are talking to Mary, who is dead as you quite rightly put…is not just wrong! but an abomination before God.
I pray enlightenment for you sister in Christ.
So….no afterlife? No heaven? Or is God alone in heaven?
I don’t believe that was said in Matthew’s statement, only yours, onesmart….
read it again
Why did Jesus entrust Mary to the apostle John instead of to His brothers?
Jesus Mary John
Question: “Why did Jesus entrust Mary to the apostle John instead of to His brothers?”
Answer: When Jesus was on the cross, both the apostle John and Mary the mother of Jesus stood nearby. In John 19:26–27 we read, “When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, ‘Woman, here is your son,’ and to the disciple, ‘Here is your mother.’ From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” The clear understanding of the passage is that Jesus commanded John to care for Mary after His death.
Mary was most certainly a widow at this point in her life and also an older woman. Though she had other sons, Jesus chose John to provide care for Mary after His death. Why? Jesus’ brothers did not become believers until after His resurrection (John 7:5). Further, Jesus’ brothers were not present at His crucifixion. Jesus was entrusting Mary to John, who was a believer and was present, rather than entrusting her to His brothers, who were not believers and who were not even present at His crucifixion.
As the oldest son in His family, Jesus had a cultural obligation to care for His mother, and He passed that obligation on to one of His closest friends. John would have certainly obeyed this command. Mary was most likely one of the women in the upper room and was present when the church was established in Jerusalem (Acts 1:12–14). She probably continued to stay with John in Jerusalem until her death. It is only later in John’s life that his writings and church history reveal John left Jerusalem and ministered in other areas.
This is also confirmed by Acts 8:1 that reads, “On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.” John was still in the city at this time (perhaps one or two years after the resurrection) and was still there three years after the conversion of Paul (Galatians 2:9).
There is no contextual proof within Scripture itself that would point to Jesus broadening Mary’s role as “mother” of all Christians. In fact, Catholic teaching can only point to early church leaders as proof that Jesus meant to establish Mary’s “motherhood” to all believers in Christ or that Mary was a cooperative participant in salvation. John took Mary into his home to care for her. The Bible does not say “from that time on Mary became the mother of all believers.”
The beauty of John 19:26–27 is reflected in the care Jesus had for His mother, as well as the care John provided for her. Scripture clearly teaches the importance of caring for widows and the elderly, something Jesus personally applied during His final hours of His earthly ministry. James, the half-brother of Jesus, would later call such care for widows “pure religion.” “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world” (James 1:27).
Wow. Some people really don’t understand bible theology. When studying the bible you MUST take into account the time,place, and circumstances taking place when the book was written! This passage is taken from a time when the world was covered in the Jews themselves using magic and fortune tellers that conjure the dead. This is what God is talking about! Not asking those in heaven to pray for us! Those in heaven are alive. And we are not asking them to talk back! We are asking them to talk to God. Which they can obviously do in Heaven. We are not inquiring of the dead or conjuring up their spirits! Do you have any loved ones that you believe went to heaven? Did you “talk” to them, even if it was just in your thoughts, after they died? Do you believe in life everlasting as Jesus taught? I do and I am not afraid to say so.. We are all one body in Christ. Are you separated from that body after you die? I sure hope not!
I will also pray for your enlightenment brother in Christ.
Thanks, you made a very clear explanation. I am sure, like Matthew Ludu and others who were taught by their pastors wrongly, and they own it and seem to believe it half-hazard or half-hearted or half-witted, but if they were only serious in learning the Bible with open-heart and mind and persevere, for sure through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not the spirit that guided the Protestants to divide the body of Christ, soon they will get the right thing as you explained above, Thanks, may God bless you in many folds.
Hello Jose,
Glory to God in the highest! Peace be with you. Having an open heart and mind works both ways. All Christians should always seek the lord and realize that all knowledge is through the spirit and not of our doing. Please read my response to Mahner18 above. Hopefully this will shed some light on your spiritual life and open some doors in your heart. May God bless you.
All Glory goes to God and his most holy name. Peace be with all who read this.
It’s irrelevant whether Mary or our dead relatives can hear us.
Who do we pray to: In Luke 11:2 Jesus says how we should pray. It starts with Father.
When we need intercessions: Jesus prays for us, (John 17: 20) “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message.”
Who is our mediator: Jesus will advocate for us and doesn’t need direct access from Mary or the “saints” to put in a good word for us. (John 14:13) “Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”
Who did Jesus pray to: He prayed to the Father. Three prayers on the cross:
(Luke 23:34)”Father forgive them; for they know not what they do”
(Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34)”My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Luke 23:46)”Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”
Then before raising Lazarus (John 11:41-42)
Then at his Baptism (Luke 3:21)
Then at the transfiguration Luke 9:29
Paul also instructs to pray to God, (Philippians 4:6–7 ) “do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
Jesus had direct access to Mary and none of these times Jesus prayed to her. He never calls her Mother as he calls her “Woman”. Jesus wasn’t being disrespectful because woman back then was equivalent to today’s Ma’am.
You can try to piece together bible verses and bring people down a complex formula or matrix to make your point but it’s pretty clear that that Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father and do it through Him with the power of the Sprit.
And with your Spirit, Joe Joe. Thanks you explained it very well. Exactly, we address our prayers foremost, to the Father in Heaven. Though, the Trinity, nothing wrong if our prayers will also address to “Lords Jesus Christ,” or to the Holy Spirit. But wait, generally we address our prayers to “Father in Heaven.”
But Catholics DO NONE OF THOSE THINGS.
You have made unjustified assumptions that are Protestant mythology.
Catholics state in The Creeds of the very early Church that they believe in “The Communion of Saints”.
We believe the veil that separates those now with God, and those here, is thin. We “talk” to them…. as to those still with us. We ask for their help in praying to God as all Christians ask one another. It’s called “loving one another”.
If you condemn this YOU CONDEMN CHRIST…..for he met and talked with the dead Moses & Elijah at The transfiguration.
There is no conjuring, divination, sorcery or anything of the like. Who taught you to spread lies about your fellow christians.
So you don’t believe that death is a passage way to eternal life, hopefully with Christ? Do you believe in no afterlife? Jesus while dying gave us His mother from the Cross. ‘Behold your mother’ because she is the first disciple and was intimately familiar with her Son and his ministry. Why not ask her for intercession? Who better to perfect our prayers and aid us?
@onesmartbroad:disqus can please give me a bible verse that state “Jesus while dying gave us His mother from the Cross.”
From one of your abridged versions of the Bible:
John 19:25-29New King James Version (NKJV)
Behold Your Mother
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
John chapter 5, Jesus says that those who pass on hear His voice only, not ours. That includes Mary and all those people the papacy has canonized.
25
Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. This verse that you quoted has nothing to do with being deaf to the church militant on earth. It has to do with life in Christ. You can’t add words to the Word. I know Luther did when he added ‘alone’ to promote his position on being saved by grace ALONE but it is, was, and will be wrong to add to Scripture. Nothing about hearing us or not hearing us.
Jesus was filled with compassion for humanity even when he was in excruciating pain. He prayed to God to forgive his persecutors. He saw his mother crying and told her that to see John as her son, and told John to see Mary as his own mother. Bible says that John took Mary to his home. Jesus merely fulfilled his duty as a son to comfort his mother. Where has offered his mother for veneration/intercession to His devotees? Even after he arose from death, Jesus told Peter to take care of his flock. Never mentioned mother Mary.
Hi Bobby
Mary was not St. John’s actual, physical mother.
And yet the dying Lord tells him “Behold your Mother”.
(not “Could you look after my mum?”). It is a statement of soteriological fact. “She IS your mum”
St. John represents all Christians here; Jesus is giving the “Woman” – the New Eve – to all Christians as their spiritual Mother.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus, we are His brothers and sisters, so Mary is
our Mother as well. Though she did not physically give birth to us,
she gave Jesus the Sacred Body of which we have become members
(Ephesians 5:29). We are all united to the fruit of Mary’s womb; the
very same Flesh which Jesus drew from the Virgin, so she is, in a very
real sense, our Mother in the order of the Redemption.
This interpretation goes back to the Early Church Fathers.
Thank you.
It’s interesting how protestants sometimes take Jesus’ words to heart and know He is speaking to them and at other times they do not consider Jesus speaking to them (like not to divorce, for example). Behold your mother was Jesus’ statement to all of us. By what authority do you reject that Jesus was speaking directly to YOU?
How in the hell do you know that Jesus “merely fulfilled his duty as a son to comfort his mother:? Seriously. That is your researched and prayed over revelation to you from God? NOPE.. Do it again!
I should add that it is absolutely clear Jesus refers to Mary as “New Eve” here. There are only 2 possiblilities.
(1)Jesus last act. as he dies. is to “diss” his mother (calling her “woman”)
So he dies in sin, breaking the 4th commandment. And “‘Cursed be anyone who dishonors his father or his mother.” (Deut 27:16)
(2)Or Jesus is referring to “The Woman” …”mother of all the living” The NEW EVE.
John 19 25-27
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
I may be late to this but I must share with you!- The living on Earth have no contact with the souls living in Heaven. What we have in common is that we are connected to the Holy Spirit. But to pray to a soul in Heaven is to speak on Def ears, they cannot hear you! Nor can they save you, Only the father and the son can. You ask who better to aid us? That is Jesus. Mary is in the Kingdom but she cannot save. Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life, No one comes to the father EXCEPT through me.” John 14:6
I disagree, respectfully. We are the Church Militant here on earth and the Church Triumphant is in heaven. To be with the Lord forever is a sweet sinless eternity. Why would they be deaf? Jesus isn’t deaf. Why would He take away their hearing?! I believe the most perfect intercessors in heaven are not only happy to pray for us but consider it a loving gift. It’s not all about being “saved” and to only pray to the one who saves ignoring the remainder of the Church Triumphant is denying the rest of the body of Christ their desire to pray for you. You ask friends to pray for you now, yes? Why not ask those who are already saints, who are purified and with Jesus? It is an opportunity for those already with Him to love us in a more perfect way. Jesus on the brink of his death gave His mother to us. I don’t refuse that gift.
You miss interpret my metaphor of def ears or twist my words. I didn’t say they are def, The meaning of that was they cannot hear YOU nor can they save you, because they do not intercept prayers, if anything they are glorifying the lord. Of coarse Jesus isn’t def and there is only ONE intercessor between us and God and that is Jesus:
1 Timothy 2:5- “For there is one God, AND ONE MEDIATOR between God and Men, the man CHRIST JESUS.”
Do I ask people to pray for me you ask? Yes. But know, asking someone to pray FOR you who’s among us in the living flesh is much different than praying TO someone who is not among is in the flesh.
Why not ask the saints you ask?… Why pray to a saint when you can pray directly to the holy spirit?
1 John 5:14- ” This is the confidence which we have before him, that if we ask anything according to his will, HE hears us.”
Jesus is the only purifier. He is the one who loves in a perfect way.
Christ IS the Gift. Don’t refuse the gift of a personal relationship with him because of being deceived into thinking you must go through others to get to him. If you are trying to do right by God then know, do not follow the tradition of man.. follow the scripture in the gospel.
I thank you for your response! I love that we can discuss this and show why we believe differently from each other in a respectful way. Jesus is smiling down upon both of us and I pray for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to pour forth! You are conflating my words and confusing them with others. “intercessor” is not a synonym with “mediator’ so don’t conflate and confuse them. Why pray to a saint when you can pray directly to the Holy Spirit? Because I want to do both and I am encouraged to do both. Did not Jesus appear at the Transfiguration with 2 saints? Did not Jesus, at his death, say to us, Behold your mother? When you are dead and hopefully in heaven with the Lord….do you want to intercede before the Throne for your loved ones on earth- both those who love the Lord and those who have fallen away, believing the lies of the enemy? Do you not love more perfectly in heaven and as such, want to ask the Lord to help your loved ones still on earth, still being deceived by the evil one? Intercession does NOT replace the Lord nor does it displace Him. It adds to our prayers. More and more praying for the same issue has POWER.
Mediator is exactly a synonym for intercessor a long with go between and moderator.
Galatians 3:20
“A mediator is unnecessary, however if there is only one party, but God is one.”
Acts 4:12
Salvation Exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which he must be saved.”
Am with you Gata
Acts 4…. so people get the full jest of what was being said in the lead up to 4:12
4 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3 They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4 But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.
5 The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’[a]
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Let me ask you this: Do you take everything written in the Scripture from God? Do you? Are you divorced? How do you justify it?
How do you know when your Scripture interpretation is a metaphor or when it is reality? Who tells you the truth? Where is your authority>?
… If there is a metaphor in the bible it is to help us understand the reality of the message it sends.
The word of God is only the truth..
My authority? I really don’t think your understanding your questions. I have no authority but through the word of God which is only reality.
Mathew 28:18
” All authority has been given to me in Heaven and on Earth.”
How do you know when the Blessed Lord is talking to you metaphorically or when it is literal? Without an authority to help you understand that when Jesus spoke against divorce, for instance, how do you know he wasn’t speaking to YOU. The word of God is alive and is truth; agreed. What I do not understand is how you can allow this Truth to be adulterated by relativism. What it says to me is my truth and what it says to you is yours. That is philosophically impossible. There can only be ONE absolute truth. See what I mean? “Do this in remembrance of me” at the Last Supper means exactly that…..which is the Mass.
…The Bible is the word of God…so yes.. and yess…
How is that relevant? So God says he hates divorce. Long story short he hates sin.
Why would I even attempt to try to justify something the Lord doesn’t like?
Your taking things and twisting them. Im a sinner. I have no authority to justify any sin. Nor does that apply to praying to the lord and lord only.
Yes tell him, rebuke him and correct him.
Onesmartbroad…
Hahahaha…why are you sooo sarcastic???
You don’t understand this because you don’t have what it takes to be a God chosen.
Read Acts 19:2 and if you don’t have what the scripture says than, Roman’s 8:9 is ruling you out of everything friend.
There are many things in the Bible that were laws of the land and have nothing to do with Gods word.
And some try to use those passages as to prove themselves right.
But even Jesus warned the holy men of his time about traditions of man over Gods word….
So There were religious laws of the land set by the church, That he did not follow…
Jesus led by example.
If it contradicts the teachings of Christ Jesus…. Disregard it and move on down the road…
Nothing but love to all.
How did you know saints exists and can hear our prayer.
Have you been to heaven yourself??
So according to your logic you must physically visit someone to know he exists, or to have any type of personal relationship with them you have to see them? So blind people can’t know for sure that any of us exist? How about others with afflictions- they too are limited in having proof of someone’s existence? We can’t see wind but we know it exists. Or love for thst matter. Where does love live so I can go check it out?
You right ,,,right and correct Gata
Why not ask Jesus for intercession? Who better to perfect our prayers and aid us.
Search scripture and you will find that Jesus said to ask, seek, knock and pray in His name only.
From the cross Jesus did not give Mary to the world.
From the cross Jesus gave Himself to the world as the final perfect saving blood sacrifice for the sins of the world.
Mary doesn’t have anything to do with our afterlife.
Jesus died and resurrected to save us from hell and bring us to His Kingdom, which He provides to us as the only peaceful and joyful afterlife.
Who told you Mary was dead?
Matt 22:32
Jesus tells off The sadducees ……” I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Mary is no more dead than Abraham. Are you a Sadducee?
Now Read Revelations 11:19 ….following (NB. The Chapter divisions are added for our convenience & are no part of the original)
God’s Ark is Mary (11:19). She is the Ark of the New Covenant.
What 3 objects were in The Ark of The Old Covenant that was so holy?
(a)The Word of God on the stone tablets;
(b)Manna. The bread from heaven to feed god’s people.
(c) Aaron’s priestly Rod.
These three (inanimate) objects made the Ark so holy that Uzzah was struck dead for touching it.
By the power of the Holy Spirit (and with her consent) Mary gave living flesh to these three things in one person….Jesus,who is
(a)The Living Word of God
(b) The Living bread of Life &
(c) The High Priest and the sacrificial lamb.
The following verses show her as “Queen of Heaven” .
If Jesus has “The Throne of His father David” (As promised in the Annunciation in Luke) ……His MOTHER is his QUEEN Read 1Kings & 2Kings (And look up Gebirah)
It goes on to portray Mary as The New Eve in conflict with the Dragon/Serpent/Satan as predicted by God in Genesis. Then as mother of the redeemed & personification of The Church.
Hello,
You have an interesting interpretation of Rev 11:19. John is not referring to Mary. The ark that John sees in his vision of heaven is probably not the same ark that Moses constructed either. We know that the articles in the tabernacle were “copies of the heavenly things” (Hebrews 9:23) and that the sanctuary itself was but “a copy and shadow of what is in heaven” (Hebrews 8:5). So more reasonable this is the original Ark that is in heaven. As it states “Then Gods temple in heaven was opened…”.
So you condemn Jesus….for talking with Elijah & Moses at The Transfiguration? They are as dead (or alive) as His mum are they not?
“Praying” to saints is only “talking” (like Jesus did with Moses & Elijah) with our friends who are in heaven.
dude, Jesus is the great I AM. He can summon and talk to WHOEVER HE WANTS.
Agreed. but he is not “summoning-up” the dead as a necromancer.
He is talking to those alive & with God
Matt 32:32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Ya, but doesn’t mean we can’t communicate with those who are in Abraham’s bosom, Jesus can cause he’s Jesus, we need to go talk to Jesus., we should have faith that our Lord and God will hear us, listen to us, loves us and will be merciful to us, why should we put our faith in anything else? let Jesus have the Glory the Father has given Him and let him be sole intercessor right? Why steal away from his glory and give it to another human?
Ya, but doesn’t mean we can communicate with those who are in Abraham’s bosom, Jesus can ’cause he’s JESUS, we need to go talk to Jesus if we want stuff, we should have faith that our Lord and God will hear us, listen to us, loves us and will be merciful to us, why should we put our faith in anything else? let Jesus have the Glory the Father has given Him and let him be sole intercessor right? Why steal away from his glory and give it to another human?
I think I understand what you are saying. (I presume in your first sentence you meant to write “can” not “can’t” (otherwise you would be agreeing with the idea)
And you seem to be saying Jesus can communicate with anyone, anywhere; but for us,we can only pray to Jesus.
“Jesus-&-me” is good, but it is not complete, and it is not biblical either.
You are not saved into a solitary relationship with Jesus.
You are saved into a people-of-God, which, in this final Covenant, is a Covenant of entry into Family-Relationships with God.
You “are sons by adoption” of The Father, and you are a “brother of Jesus” (Heb 2:11)….which makes his mum your mum, and completes the familial picture of This Covenant.
This is confirmed by Jesus’s last act from the cross (in John). Jesus says to his Mother & John (The only faithful disciple there) “Behold thy mother” &….. “WOMAN…..behold thy son”.
“Behold” means “here is”….your mother …. a statement of cosmic
REALITY…..not just a new domestic arrangement.
And why “Woman”?
“Woman” was Eve’s name/title/role before the Fall.
She was mother of us all in sin,….. & Mary is gifted to us as our New Mother(Eve) of us all in redemption (See Early Fathers).
Start thinking Jewish.
If you don’t accept this allusion to Eve, you are left with Jesus “dissing his mum” (And sinning by breaking the fourth commandment) as his last act!!! Impossible.
And Mary happens to be standing on “the skull” (Golgotha) (See Gen 3:15) and she is under The Tree of Life; to which she has brought back “The good fruit” (of her womb ) and allowed it to stay there, suffering in obedience, whilst “a sword pierces her heart” (As Simeon prophesied).
Now Jesus’s new commandment is that we “Love one another” …..that is God’s delight.
And love is not confined to one, unique …one-on-one relationship. (Me-&-Jesus). Love blossoms.
Jesus gave you a new mum. Do you really think he gets angry if you (his brother) love your shared mum? Do you really think it “takes away from him? As a Catholic I can say Mary brings you closer to him. it’s what she does….And she was the FIRST person to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”…..in her womb and for 30 years thereafter! A good (the best ) Jewish boy & his Jewish mum.
Remember the 4th Commandment in hebrew “Glorify your Mother & your father” We know he glorified His Father….how did he glorify his mum? (See below)
PRAYING TO MARY
Remember firstly….Jesus is “The Messiah” which means “annointed Davidic King”.
The Angel confirms it to Mary thus….
“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David”, Liuke 1:32
The Davidic Kings had Queens
THEIR MOTHER WAS THEIR QUEEN (too many wives)
The Davidic Queen had a job, called “Gebirah”
This was to intercede with the king for her people and the King would never refuse her.
Jesus is The Eternal Davidic King.
So is his mother his queen?…….Yes; See Revelation Ch. 12
Jesus mum is in Heaven with a 12-starred-crown(Israel). & she
gives birth to him.
Does she intercede for us? Yes Jesus first miracle at Cana is done at her intercession for the people who have no wine…
Mary is “The lowly handmaid of the Lord”. That’s why He exalted her above all other creatures. Her humble role is cloaked (in typology), for those with eyes to see, & hearts that are opened.
The scriptures are full of her in the form of Typology.
(ReadIng scripture with Protestant-Goggles on, rejects this, but accepts Typology, re. Christ….as the New Adam/Moses/David. This is just illogical anti-Catholicism)
Another Type she fulfils is The Ark of The Covenant.
All that OT fuss over the Ark…..it is about Mary!
eg. Do you know how Lukes account of The Visitation is a blatant recap of The Ark going to David?
Do you know what 3 things were kept in the Ark?
She is the living Ark/Tabernacle of God.
She Knitted in her womb,,,,,,, The New Manna from Heaven; The Living Word of God & The true High Priest.
Try researching Mary as Ark of The Covenant without using anti-catholic resources.
I find it frustrating that protestants say “Show exactly in the bible where it says eg “pope” “rosary” etc…..!”
“You can’t show me exactly where it says all you say above ……in the Bible”
It’s part of The Protestant interpretative-TRADITION and is less than 500 years old.
And the whole “Jesus-&-me-&-my-bible” is a totally unbiblical heresy from the last 50 years.
lol, you made laugh.
Jesus can do what others passed on can’t. Because he is the Christ!
Others are not on the same VIP level to do what he does.
None of them will hold Gods ear over him.
Jesus stands at the right hand of God.
No mention of the other standing with him…lol
That is why the fallen one fell..
He wanted the VIP pass to sit on the Heavenly fathers thrown.
But he was …. Denied and cast down.
It is okay to try to be a good Christian “Christ-like” but their is only one Christ….
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his
daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells
fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a
necromancer ***or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these
things is an abomination to the Lord.**** And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God,
The catholic prayer Memorare to Mary in her name says “I come to you mother, I stand before you sinful and sorrowful, despise not my petitions, but hear and answer me.” This is absolute idolatry at its worst.
The author to this prayer is unknown, I guess the catholic who wrote this is trying to hide from the truth hoping Jesus won’t find him/her.
The catholic church thinks it was St. Bernard of Clairvaux or a French priest Claude Bernard, the church doesn’t really know.
Catholics pray to thousands of canonized saints in their names, absolute idolatry. When will this madness stop?
Search scripture and you will find that Jesus said to ask, seek, knock and pray in His name only.
Mary do you ask for your friends to pray for you? I assume you do and you trust that the Lord honors this multitude of prayer, supporting your prayer petition. This is what intercession looks like. Now think about this. You can also ask those saints in heaven to also pray for you. Unlike your friends on earth they are totally purified and saints; they live with Jesus! So if you ask those who live on this earth in their sinly state, how can you not imagine asking the saints already in heaven to intercede for you as well?
You Protestors and your in someone’s name. What is that? how about God, then you get it right, he knows who you are praying to you don’t have to say in Jesus name. Now if you are asking the intercession of The Blessed Virgin Mary , The Mother Of God, The Morning star, The immaculate Conception, The Arc Of The Covenant, The Fear Of Demons, or one of the Saints you may want to mention the name, but that to is just for yourself because God already knows and so does whoever you are praying to. Why because God is Love & Family is Love, & God wants us all to be in his Family and his Mother and all his Saints are a big part of that Family, like Jesus said of the Pharisees so it is with the reformers, “you are a stiff necked bunch”.
Did Jesus ever prayed to a saint to help him while he was on earth?
Did he ever pray to Mary knowing that (as you said) a saint to help him.?
I don’t think so.
Hi–Jesus met with St. Elijah and St. Moses on the Mt. of Transfiguration and talked with them about his coming Passion.
Yes he did!….. on Mount Tabor Jesus spoke with Moses & Elijah.
Remember for Catholics “Prayer” is not identical to “worship”.
It is sometimes just talking with that “cloud of witnesses” who offer constant prayers for us to God as in Revelations. Just like Jesus talked with Moses & Elijah
If Peter was a Protesant he would have said…. “Jesus, stop talking to the dead”
Instead “Peter said to Jesus,….. “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, I will put up three shelters: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
What does the word “PRAY” actually mean?
“To pray” originally meant “ask earnestly, beg, entreat,”
(See https://www.etymonline.com/… )
Because Protestants only “ask God”,….the word “pray” has come to mean (only in their minds) “talking to God”.
So…in many Protestant minds………”PRAYER=WORSHIP” (of the divine)
Catholics & Orthodox keep the older meaning of “pray”. And I pray you understand this! (See! it even “sounds” old).
So, for Catholics & Orthodox, “Prayer” is not necessarily always
worship! It includes requests for more prayer to God.
Perhaps you are (unconciously?) imposing your epistomology or categories onto Catholics (in defiance of correct English) to misjudge them.
————————–
True WORSHIP is more than prayer; it involves SACRIFICE.
And the sacrifice of Jesus that took place in Palestine AD 34 is offered ETERNALLY to The Father (see Revelations) OUTSIDE OF TIME. CAtholics & Orthodox plug-into this outside-of-time-reality when the Mass is said…..becoming really present at Calvary & in Heaven offering His eternal sacrifice. This is the eternal Passover; & ask any Jew about Passover….they do not re-enact it…….thay are “made present” with the ONE Passover.
This is the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11……….
“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.”
If this is not fulfilled before your eyes in The Catholic Mass how is it fulfilled?
Also:
(2 Baruch 29:8) _”And it will happen at that time that the treasury of manna will come down again from on high, and they will eat of it in those years because these are they who will have arrived at the consummation of time.”
Now read John 6: 23-71. Then come to God’s Church offer this sacrifice & eat it. That is TRUE WORSHIP
I am not decrying Protestant worship, but it is denuded. It is reduced to Praise, Study & Thanksgiving…..all great things……but it is “missing something”.
And it becomes a kind of “entertainment”, dependent on the performance of the Pastor.
Glory to God and his most holy name. Peace be with you.
If Emily is going to quote the bible with supposed proof of praying to the saints in Revelations, let’s see how the bible defines saint. I’ll give you a hint, all Christians are saints.
from gotqeustions: The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious.” It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” “…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem” (Acts 9:13). “Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda” (Acts 9:32). “And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use, and that is “Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…” (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view: “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).
So, (Revelation 5:8) “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Which are prayers of the Christians.
And (Revelation 8:3-4) “And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” Incense rose with prayers of the Christians.
And by the way, it’s prayers OF the saints, not prayers TO the saints.
God bless!
How can the dead hear our prayers? Jesus Himself says in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He is not a way, as in one of many; He is the way, as in the one and only. … Jesus was “chosen by God” to be the Savior (1 Peter 2:4).
God bless 🙏